Given PF on WMR last night, do I have a chance at appeal?

Watershed said:

If the PF has been issued to Bletchley they would have had the option of waiting just a small amount of time until the next valid service.

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I think saying that would undermine the point that the PF is invalid and should not have been issued at all.

Haywain said:

I think saying that would undermine the point that the PF is invalid and should not have been issued at all.

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Fair enough. I suppose it is always a judgment call as to whether to include such arguments. Personally speaking I see no reason to exclude arguments.

Effectively you go:
1) The PF should not have been issued because of the NRCoT clause
2) Even if you disagree with me on the first point, the PF was wrongly issued

I don't see that the two are contradictory or undermine each other. They are separate arguments and either can succeed; for example the appeals body may be more minded to allow an appeal on the grounds that someone was overcharged, than on the grounds that they shouldn't have been issued a PF to begin with.

Ref the draft appeal wording - some minor suggested amends below - hope these are clear, as per post #30 I have not included formatting like bold. Feel free to ignore


To whom it may concern,

I am writing to appeal this Penalty Fare I have been issued for two reasons that I believe mean it has not been issued in accordance with regulations:

Appeal reason 1 - no valid grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare

I was travelling with a ticket that would be valid subject to a payment of an excess. Section 9.5.1 of the current National Rail Conditions of Travel states that the correct remedy in situations like this is for the difference in fares to be charged. It is not grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare.

I was not afforded the opportunity to pay the difference in fare, in situ and was not informed of the correct procedure. Instead the ticket inspector advised that I would be able to make this appeal to pay the difference.

I have copied the relevant section below for your convenience and bolded the key phrases

9.5 Where you:

9.5.1 are using a Ticket that is correctly dated but restricted for use at a range of times other than the service on which you are travelling (this does not include Tickets which are valid only on a specific timed train service or train services); or

9.5.2 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;

you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Appeal reason 2 - Penalty Fare missing legally required information

Regulation 5(2)(b) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 stipulates the following:

Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged - an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare

The reason provided on my Penalty Fare is listed only as 'Other' with no additional written commentary, which clearly contravenes this regulation and therefore the Penalty Fare is invalid.

To conclude:

Please can you therefore confirm the Penalty Fare reference xxx will be cancelled. I am willing to pay the excess fare excess owed in good time which I believe is all that is required. to settle this matter.

Yours sincerely,

The word 'other' as grounds for issuing a PF has come up recently in another similar thread. If you are like me and have the time it might be amusing to try and get a definition of 'other' (as used in complying with the regulations) from the TOC.

The appeal form advises attaching copies of the PF notice and my ticket when sending the appeal off. The ticket makes sense, but surely they have the ability to look at the PF on their end? Or do I really have to collate the images together to print out myself?

Still no luck on getting the appeal service to send me a confirmation email.

lintz said:

The appeal form advises attaching copies of the PF notice and my ticket when sending the appeal off. The ticket makes sense, but surely they have the ability to look at the PF on their end? Or do I really have to collate the images together to print out myself?

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It's worth remembering that you want something from them i.e. for them to take a fair look at your case and realise that a PF should never have been issued. And (as far as I know) your case will be dealt with by a human being. It's not a good idea to annoy that human being by standing on what they may be able to do when you can comply with their request without too much difficulty - you've already got images you can email or upload in post #3 of this thread.

If you are seen to be cooperative, that's one less reason for the appeal handler to reject your appeal.