Old traditions remained, and locos (and crews) were still commonly changed at Perth on the Glasgow trains, and at Dundee on the Edinburgh ones. Several of the A2s used on the Edinburgh trains were actually allocated to Dundee shed. The A4s working through from Glasgow to Aberdeen and back was a novelty in itself.
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Glasgow Central, Scotland's rail infrastructure and steam workings in 1965. (long)
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Sir Felix Pole
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Economies were also made with the closure of the (rather grand) Caledonian terminal station (Dundee West) in 1965.
Gloster
Veteran Member
Dundee West closed 3 May 1965; it was only served from Perth by then as the Alyth Junction service had closed on 10 January 1955. Dundee East had closed on 5 January 1959.
Source: Quick’s Chronology.
Considering 60034 was given a heavy intermediate at Darlington in early 1965, ex works in April, it looks quite grimy and run down. What is surprising, is that 60034 along with 60019, were given such expensive repairs, supposedly paid for by the Scottish Region, at such a late date.
By that time Brush type 4 construction was in full swing at both Brush and Crewe, and it seems strange that the Scottish Region did not put in a case for more of these units to fully cover the Glasgow-Aberdeen service.
The upgraded Paxman type 2 (D6123) had been tried unsuccessfully on the route during 1963/64, and it was then obvious more powerful diesels would be needed, but in the end steam carried on as a stop-gap.
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70014IronDuke
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Agreed. Does this mean 60019 was the last A4 to receive major works attention (at least paid for by BR)?
How much longer did it take via Dundee, as opposed to Forfar? Was there much opposition to the closure of the old Caledonian route, do you know? Did the celebrated 'three-hour' expresses stop at any stations on that line, or were the intermediate stations served only by local trains?
I suspect, but don't know, that the line had little to no originating freight traffic, no coal mines etc along its route, which would have given it a weak economic case?
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Don't think it took longer via Dundee as such, as services calling at the usual six stations (Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven) took about 3 hours or just under (albeit diesel-hauled) in the late-60s to late-70s.
The famous steam-worked three-hour Expresses (of which there were two each way), called at Stirling, Perth, Forfar and Stonehaven in each direction. The Perth to Forfar timing represented a booked start-to-stop of over 60mph.
The LMS also briefly ran 3-hour workings on this route but with only two intermediate stops - at Perth and at Stonehaven.
D6130
Established Member
Looking at my 1963 Scottish Region timetable, the Grampian three hour express departed Buchanan Street 08 25 and called only at Stirling (09 01-04), Perth (09 40-43), Forfar (10 16), Stonehaven (11 01) and arrived in Aberdeen at 11 25. Likewise the St Mungo, which departed Glasgow at 17 30. Similar timings in the Up direction.
It's difficult to compare the timings via Dundee following the closure of the Strathmore route, as the previous Glasgow-Dundee services were semi-fasts with quite a large number of stops. The next most recent timetable I have is for 1970 - by which time the services had been fully diesel used - and I can't access my copy at the moment as it is currently on loan to a friend.
There was a fair amount of freight traffic, which ensured the line's survival as far as Forfar until 1982. Coal and fertiliser inbound....seed potatoes and soft fruit outbound.
Darlington outshopped 60019 on 24th March 1965, and 60034 a month later on 21st April after heavy intermediate repairs. These were the last A4s to receive major repairs in BR service, although 60004 and 60024 did receive light repairs at Darlington later that summer.
There was not much in it distance wise, under ten miles, with the old Caledonian route via Forfar the shortest. How much longer it took via Dundee would depend on the station stops. One quite interesting working was the 13:30 Aberdeen-Glasgow via Dundee, which was steam hauled until 1966. The train took four hours, and was due to arrive in Buchanan Street just as the 17:30 three hour train to Aberdeen departed. So two A4s would often pass just outside the station, with enthusiasts on the incoming train cursing the failure of an early arrival, and the chance of A4 haulage straight back out!
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70014IronDuke
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Thanks for correcting me on this - I don't think I've actually been that way ever (certainly not by rail and almost certainly not by road) - I just had the impression it was very rural, but I suppose rail freight demand may have lasted longer if so and out of the Glasgow -Edboro central belt.
EDIT Thanks for all the replies - Having limited experience of this area and Scotland in general back in steam days, it was of great interest to me
Bevan Price
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D6123 was still in use in Summer 1965. I twice turned down an opportunity to ride behind it whilst on holiday that year. I was going from Aberdeen to Perth, and the 17:15 express to Glasgow was followed about 15 minutes later by a semi-fast calling at all stations still open (a lot of the smaller stations had already closed). The reason - the locos on the slower service were much more interesting - once a Black 5, the other time a Class A3 Pacific......
Seems we are a privileged few, of forum members to have experienced A3 haulage other than by 4472! Will take a guess, that because of the date, it was either 60041 or 60052?
D6130
Established Member
Was 60100 "Spearmint" still running then....or had she just been withdrawn?
Probably not running. 60100 entered Darlington works for repairs on 31st May 1965 which were not authorised, hence loco was withdrawn on 19th June.
70014IronDuke
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Perhaps some spoil-sport bean counter had noticed a few too many Gresley pacifics were going through works on expensive overhauls considering they had, at most about 15 months (?) working life left?
One does have to wonder if an old LNER manager in the Scottish Region hierarchy was not pulling a few too many strings here to get these locos shopped and back on the rails?
Curiously, without seeing @D6130's post, I immediately thought of Spearmint myself.
There is a shot, online somewhere of an A3, I think it's Spearmint, at Carlisle, at night. It's 45 degree angle from behind, with a Thompson carriage (I think0 with one of those oval loo windows immediatly behind it. One of my top 10 all time fav railway shots, so atmospheric and moody. Has the feeling it's been shot at 03.00 one morning with a string of sleepers and parcels vans behind it.
I loved the A3s, most especially with the German deflectors.
When was steam finally banished from the Glasgow-Aberdeens? Did it last until Christmas '66?
I suspect ‘Spearment’ was sent to Darlington by the Scottish Region in May 1965 for a light repair, but after assessment, heavy repairs were deemed necessary so the loco was instead condemned. A month or so later 60052 was sent to Inverurie works for minor repairs which were granted, and the A3 saw 1965 out.
Steam was supposed to end on Saturday 3rd September 1966 on the Glasgow-Aberdeen workings by which time only two A4s, 60019 and 60024, were still in service. According to stock lists they were then both withdrawn in full working order. However ‘Kingfisher’ had a final fling working the 17:15 Aberdeen-Glasgow on 13th September and the 08:25 Glasgow-Aberdeen the next morning 10 days after its official withdrawal. And Glasgow Buchanan Street closed in November 1966, as part of the Beeching axe.
Steam was supposed to end on Saturday 3rd September 1966 on the Glasgow-Aberdeen workings by which time only two A4s, 60019 and 60024, were still in service. According to stock lists they were then both withdrawn in full working order. However ‘Kingfisher’ had a final fling working the 17:15 Aberdeen-Glasgow on 13th September and the 08:25 Glasgow-Aberdeen the next morning 10 days after its official withdrawal. And Glasgow Buchanan Street closed in November 1966, as part of the Beeching axe.
matchmaker
Established Member
I wonder what "Toram Beg" (driver Norman McKillop) would have thought about this?
What is interesting about those LMS 3-hour workings was that they were worked by ‘Jubilees’, until WW2 put an end to the accelerated timings.
Between the summer of 1962 and late 1963, before the transfer of surplus A4s from England to Scotland, there were only 5 A4s (2 at St Rollox and 3 at Aberdeen Ferryhill) available to work the 3-hour trains. Consequently many A1, A2, A3, V2 and Class 5 substitutes occurred on quite a regular basis.
There is a log in Modern Railways of Black Five 44959 on the 08:25 Glasgow-Aberdeen in 1963, gaining over 4 minutes, of a 8 minute late start from Perth, between Perth and Aberdeen. It just failed to keep that 31 minute schedule, for the 32.5 miles to Forfar, by 43 seconds.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Unfortunately my knowledge is somewhat limited as regardless how the different LMS types compared.
I know that the 'Stanier Fives', as I understand Scottish crews always referred to them, were universally well-regarded to the extent that it took some persuading for crews to take to their new ex-LNER charges.
I've never heard about how Jubilees performed, whether they had a better turn of speed than the Black Fives, which were more of a good all-rounder mixed traffic engine, as designed.
I believe the LMS 3-hour workings were also more load restricted than the later 1960s ones, which could load up to 8 Mk1s with no change to timings.
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There's also a log behind an A4 I've seem with over 90mph touched on the 'racetrack'...
Gloster
Veteran Member
Looking at September 1964 to June 1965, the morning and evening Aberdeen-Buchanan Street and v.v. were limited to 275 tons. These were to be Mark 1 with buckeye couplings and Pullman gangways (and no fish vans).
hexagon789
Veteran Member
I believe they were always specified as 'Class Z' stock, which was notionally Mk1s with schedule A maintenance.
The ScR had brand-new Commonwealth bogied Mk1 SK and BSKs delivered in ~60/61 they preferred for these trains, along with fairly new RMBs and RUs IIRC. The FKs were Mk1-bogied but still relatively new, such that they never received any new with Commonwealths.
As the 1960s progressed you'll notice fewer Commonwealth bogied Mk1s appear, I was told they had to give many of them up for older Mk1-bogied vehicles so that one of the other regions could have them for their upgraded 100mph trains.
Gloster
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Indeed these two trains, and a few others, were shown in the Carriage Working Book to be Class Z stock.
Bevan Price
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60052
70014IronDuke
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i'm sure I read reports about the demise of Scottish express steam in Railway World at the time, but I can't remember much. Did this transformation make the general Scottish press? I mean, apart from some the Southern Region's Weymouth line, and the odd Jubilee over the S and C, these were the last steam9hauled expresses in the UK, and they used arguably the most iconic UK steam locos of all time - the A4s.
Did this filter through to the crews at the time? And somehow they managed to keep one or two A2s, A3s and A4s to, or close to, the very end.
Thanks to " 70014IronDuke" for starting this thread - there can never be too much1960s nostalgia.
Returning to the beginning of the thread and the closure of St Enoch's station at the end of June 1966, I note that " 70014" arrived in Central on his journey from St Pancras at Easter 1965. I distinctly remember travelling on a relief to the overnight southbound St Pancras train in September 1965 and it departed from Central. This has made me ask when the main Anglo-Scottish were transferred from St Enoch's to Central before the closure of the former. I vaguely recall that prior to the closure of St Enoch's , on Sundays ( perhaps during winter ) St Enoch's was closed and its services diverted to Central.
Another question which this thread has prompted to me to ask concerns the track layout in Shields Road area , adjacent to where Shields ETD is now located. Prior to the closure of St Enoch's , there was no direct route for a train to proceed from Central to the Paisley Canal line. At some point, this connection was put in and I wonder if anyone knows roughly when this took place.
( Not relevant to the above, but the relief train on which I travelled in September 1965 was diverted via the Low Gill - Clapham line due to a derailment on the Settle and Carlisle line. This caused a delay of approximately 2 hours to our arrival in Leeds and the commencement of the " shed bashing " coach trip, but , on reflection, I am grateful for the opportunity to travel over this little used section of track .)
Returning to the beginning of the thread and the closure of St Enoch's station at the end of June 1966, I note that " 70014" arrived in Central on his journey from St Pancras at Easter 1965. I distinctly remember travelling on a relief to the overnight southbound St Pancras train in September 1965 and it departed from Central. This has made me ask when the main Anglo-Scottish were transferred from St Enoch's to Central before the closure of the former. I vaguely recall that prior to the closure of St Enoch's , on Sundays ( perhaps during winter ) St Enoch's was closed and its services diverted to Central.
Another question which this thread has prompted to me to ask concerns the track layout in Shields Road area , adjacent to where Shields ETD is now located. Prior to the closure of St Enoch's , there was no direct route for a train to proceed from Central to the Paisley Canal line. At some point, this connection was put in and I wonder if anyone knows roughly when this took place.
( Not relevant to the above, but the relief train on which I travelled in September 1965 was diverted via the Low Gill - Clapham line due to a derailment on the Settle and Carlisle line. This caused a delay of approximately 2 hours to our arrival in Leeds and the commencement of the " shed bashing " coach trip, but , on reflection, I am grateful for the opportunity to travel over this little used section of track .)
It probably didn’t leave much of a mark in the general Scottish press, because the withdrawal of the last A4s in September 1966 was not the end of Scottish express steam. BR did run a special from Glasgow to Aberdeen and back behind A4 60019 on Saturday 3rd September to recognise the occasion, an event which too some degree would have been publicised.
A2 60532 Blue Peter remained in service until the end of 1966, was used as Dundee’s mainline pilot, and found frequent use along with surviving V2s and Class 5s on reliefs, specials and as diesel substitutes. Blue Peter was recorded in Buchanan Street just before the station’s closure in November, and if IIRC was once seen at the buffer stops at Queen Street after the former closed. Even after the end of all Scottish steam in May 1967, there were regular intrusions from Carlisle to Glasgow, Perth and Edinburgh by Britannias and Class 5s. Those Jubilee workings over the S&C during the 1967 summer often went forward to Glasgow by steam after a loco change at Carlisle. The last steam workings to Glasgow and over the Waverley route to Edinburgh were in late 1967 prior to Kingmoor closing to steam. On 7th November 1967 Brit 70011 worked a Carlisle to Edinburgh Waverley passenger, and on 14th December 70024 passed Motherwell on a parcels train to Glasgow.
The end in Scotland was a gradual process, unlike on the SR where about a third of long distance mainline departures from Waterloo remained steam hauled until the end. The SR steam diagrams were known to enthusiasts who flocked to travel on these trains, and some of the crews responded very enthusiastically, flogging the run down Bulleid Pacifics, on minimum maintenance, up to 100mph on some occasions. Nobody cared about thrashing the locos, as they would all shortly be going for scrap!
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70014IronDuke
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Yes. Fair reasons, I suppose. Much more 'bitty' than the end of steam on the SR.
Thanks for the summary of 'The End" in Scotland.
Arglwydd Golau
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All very interesting to me, as in the same year that 'Iron Duke' ventured northwards I had my first experience later that year in October.
My father decided that he wanted to have a trip behind the HR 'Jones Goods' 103, and so on a Saturday we headed north on the 'Thames-Clyde Express' from Kettering. It was all new to me, but the abiding memory of that trip
was the location that Iron Duke mentioned-immediately north of Sheffield. Hailing from rural Huntingdonshire, I had never seen anything like it....steel miils, coal pits,gas works etc etc dirt, grime,black, everything filthy, industrial locos, it seemed by the score....everything that Huntingdonshire didn't have! And the smell!! Had I known of the word sulphurous at the time I word have used it as a descriptor, I recall, when reading 'The Lord of the Rings' a few
years later I imagined Isengard and Mordor looking something like that!
Anyway, arriving in Glasgow, I think we must have stayed in the station hotel or very close to Central, and after a meal, Dad and I caught a bus to wander around Eastfield shed. (Almost immediately after leaving the hotelI encountered my first ever drunk - it was a trip of firsts!) Don't know why Eastfield was chosen, was it the easiest to reach or was it likely to contain the most steam?
Anyway, the following day was the Railtour (including hurried visits to Dumfries and Carstairs sheds) and back home on the Monday (might have been half-term as I wasn't usually allowed a day off school).
There was an added bonus too, arriving on the designated platform for the T-C express (I wonder what time that left?) we noticed wisps of steam from the front and sure enough, a Britannia (70005) was at the head, deputising for a failed Peak.
60049, 60050, 60063,60106 (twice)
My father decided that he wanted to have a trip behind the HR 'Jones Goods' 103, and so on a Saturday we headed north on the 'Thames-Clyde Express' from Kettering. It was all new to me, but the abiding memory of that trip
was the location that Iron Duke mentioned-immediately north of Sheffield. Hailing from rural Huntingdonshire, I had never seen anything like it....steel miils, coal pits,gas works etc etc dirt, grime,black, everything filthy, industrial locos, it seemed by the score....everything that Huntingdonshire didn't have! And the smell!! Had I known of the word sulphurous at the time I word have used it as a descriptor, I recall, when reading 'The Lord of the Rings' a few
years later I imagined Isengard and Mordor looking something like that!
Anyway, arriving in Glasgow, I think we must have stayed in the station hotel or very close to Central, and after a meal, Dad and I caught a bus to wander around Eastfield shed. (Almost immediately after leaving the hotelI encountered my first ever drunk - it was a trip of firsts!) Don't know why Eastfield was chosen, was it the easiest to reach or was it likely to contain the most steam?
Anyway, the following day was the Railtour (including hurried visits to Dumfries and Carstairs sheds) and back home on the Monday (might have been half-term as I wasn't usually allowed a day off school).
There was an added bonus too, arriving on the designated platform for the T-C express (I wonder what time that left?) we noticed wisps of steam from the front and sure enough, a Britannia (70005) was at the head, deputising for a failed Peak.
60049, 60050, 60063,60106 (twice)
‘Six Bells Junction’ gives the date as 17/10/65, and displays a photo of ‘123’ heading north at Abington, hauling just three coaches!
Only 60074 and 60085