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Great Northern - Hertford Loop and Welwyn - why has the service been poor?

320JI

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Hoping someone with some actual knowledge can let us know what is actually happening with the service on these lines. Probably for the last 6 months the line has been a complete shambles with daily disruptions cancellations faults on trains which now seem to be liability. We were promised a 'metro' like service on these with the introduction of the new trains and all we've had is less frequency (2 TPH instead of 3 with the 313s) Less peak services that are completely rammed by Winchmore Hill.

This week is only 3 days old and EVERY day has seen severe disruptions due to faults on trains, no crew etc etc.

Any insider tell us what is ACTUALLY going on?
 
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GordonT

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Any insider tell us what is ACTUALLY going on?
I doubt if an insider would have anything additional to impart which is known only internally.

The entire Great Northern Inner/Outer plus Thameslink operation appears set up to function on a "least worst" basis in terms of deployment of available units and staff. Once even modest disruption occurs somewhere on this huge network, services can rapidly head for the famous paddle-less creek as protracted delays are carried forward from one journey to the next or journeys excised altogether.

In a nutshell available assets are being sweated to the fullest extent and adding in meaningful resilience would be substantially expensive and take a long time to implement even if there was money available.

If my quality of life depended on rail travel anywhere in this sector I would uproot and move to somewhere with a boringly reliable service but I recognise that such a strategy will not be possible for many.
 
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Crithylum

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There are already 1374 posts covering this
 

Broucek

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It was pretty nasty when the Piccadilly Line was closed mid-week in prep for the roll-out of the new stock
 

Sparks807Evo

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You can throw into the mix a fault with a 717 tonight that had to go ECS in platform 10 that seemed to then prevent anything from 9! ETCS related?
 

CR165022

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You can throw into the mix a fault with a 717 tonight that had to go ECS in platform 10 that seemed to then prevent anything from 9! ETCS related?
GNs twitter page stated a train stopped in the wrong position, so could it have been an overrun/spad situation?

 

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choochoochoo

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Not sure how a 717 can stop in the wrong position in Moorgate.

Sounds more like an ETCS issue that didn’t come up or wasnt considered during the testing phase.
 

zwk500

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GNs twitter page stated a train stopped in the wrong position, so could it have been an overrun/spad situation?
Technically it would be Passing an End of Authority without authority, as there's no signals at Moorgate.
The situation happened at Moorgate so unlikely to be a Spad or an over-run (or it would have hit the buffers)
Is there no safety distance between the Block Marker and and the buffers?
 

IanMac

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In view of Moorgate's history, it surprises me that there can be any issue with the "wrong position" of a train there.
 

notverydeep

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If the incident train has locked the whole site, perhaps it stopped short rather than long? That could mean it was partially fouling the crossover behind with the route into platform 9 remaining locked in consequence….
 

Failed Unit

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If the incident train has locked the whole site, perhaps it stopped short rather than long? That could mean it was partially fouling the crossover behind with the route into platform 9 remaining locked in consequence….
Platform 9 kept open until about 1900 when the attempted to clear platform 10.
 

rmHawk765

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Fellow Hertford Loop user here.

We were promised a 'metro' like service on these with the introduction of the new trains and all we've had is less frequency (2 TPH instead of 3 with the 313s) Less peak services that are completely rammed by Winchmore Hill.
It is a bit of a joke when you consider that the aim with the 717s was to run a 10tph peak service as far as Gordon Hill... and yet even in December this year the full 2019 frequencies will still not be restored. There will be '4tph' off-peak Mon-Sat, but with no 4tph in the early mornings and late evenings, no 4tph to Welwyn, and no 8tph peak as far as Gordon Hill. And indeed it takes just one Welwyn cancellation in the morning peak for a train full of people from Hertford, Gordon Hill, Winchmore Hill and Palmers Green (the latter three have about 1.5mil annual passengers each!) to be outright dangerously crowded past Ally Pally. What happened to the 717s magically fixing all the troubles the 313s brought, I wonder...

Probably for the last 6 months the line has been a complete shambles with daily disruptions cancellations faults on trains which now seem to be liability.
To be honest throughout the earlier half of this year, I noticed a considerable decrease in cancellations for silly reasons like a lack of drivers (GTR couldn't solve this problem over the course of over a decade!) off-peak. But the peak didn't really seem to improve, and the 6-month average punctuality in the morning peak certainly leaves something to be desired:
Screenshot_20260927_084022.jpg

There is little justification for a 6tph service having an average delay of almost 5 minutes. A delay of upwards of 6 minutes or a cancellation is enough to cause dangerous overcrowding thanks to the fact that the peak service is still reduced as compared to 2019.

There are a few factors at play here, and admittedly some of them aren't GTR's fault. First is that the Loop has been littered with temporary speed restrictions lately thanks to all the heatwaves. Network Rail unsurprisingly isn't in a rush to fix these, but it'll be dealt with at some point. The second issue is the everlasting driver problem I mentioned above. When something goes wrong, GTR has essentially zero way of restoring a uniform service, because their control gets overwhelmed and they literally just do not have any drivers in the right places. This reminds the primary cause of cancellations though Moorgate trains are not as heavily affected by this issue as Thameslink for instance. Finally, I've been noticing a fair number of GN trains delayed or cancelled due to issues at Hornsey Depot recently, which I can't really explain for sure, but it's certainly not normal.

Today the morning service has ceased to exist thanks to overrunning engineering works. This, in my opinion, is the single most unacceptable issue affecting the ECML right now. I seriously can't recall any time this year where not a single Sunday morning train to Moorgate has been cancelled or heavily delayed after engineering works. And of course it's not just Moorgate trains that are affected - any train that runs into this is not moving anywhere for a good while.

GTR also has a habit of starting evening peak services short from Finsbury or Ally Pally when issues arise, which is actually a good operational strategy, but the communication is literally non-existent, even when there's enough time to catch a different train to Finsbury.
 

320JI

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thank you @rmHawk765 for your comprehensive reply. We were promised the 717s would be the answer and we could expect a 'metro like service' i think it was described as. all we ve had is degradation to 2 tph and a peak far worse than pre covid times. recently its just been a complete farce with daily morning and evening cancellations and persistent late running. you just can't rely on it.
 

bramling

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thank you @rmHawk765 for your comprehensive reply. We were promised the 717s would be the answer and we could expect a 'metro like service' i think it was described as. all we ve had is degradation to 2 tph and a peak far worse than pre covid times. recently its just been a complete farce with daily morning and evening cancellations and persistent late running. you just can't rely on it.

This is essentially the same across the whole GN network. The Fen Line has its own specific issues, but elsewhere you just can’t rely on the service. It’s not dependable.

Ever since May 2018 it’s been the case that one has to check the various (unofficial) live feeds before venturing down to the station, and I’d say at least half the time there’s some kind of issue, be it cancellations, a service running late with the risk of it then having stops pulled, or of course the job more seriously disrupted.

It’s a whole cocktail of issues now ranging from infrastructure, TOC, and the occasional external stuff like fatalities, which unfortunately tend not to be well recovered from. What it all comes down to is that the whole GN Thameslink change just wasn’t well planned, and hasn’t been well implemented and managed. One can debate where the division of blame lies between Network Rail, GTR and the DFT, and perhaps the Covid response, but ultimately all these are “the industry”, and they have made a mess of this.

And this *is* a significant issue for everyday users, not just something that’s of interest to people on a specialist forum like this. The various local Facebook groups that I read all contain posts on a virtually daily basis where people are literally at their wits end with the quality of the local rail service. It absolutely isn’t something the industry can be proud of.
 

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