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Birmingham New Street the worst UK station?

satters

satters

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the layout for the redesigned concourse was to have interchange between all platforms on the a end too, but Network Rail changed thinking decided to add entrance / exit doors facing Smallbrook Queensway which led to that side of the concourse being split to allow access to the unpaid area, and was allegedly one of the reasons an architect walked away from the job, I find the current design of public area far more confusing than the previous incarnation, despite having been engineering staff at BHM for a considerable time, it is not helped that since privatisation of BR signage across the railway has increased but has become less clear and less helpful in wayfinding
 
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Bletchleyite

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satters said:
the layout for the redesigned concourse was to have interchange between all platforms on the a end too, but Network Rail changed thinking decided to add entrance / exit doors facing Smallbrook Queensway which led to that side of the concourse being split to allow access to the unpaid area, and was allegedly one of the reasons an architect walked away from the job, I find the current design of public area far more confusing than the previous incarnation, despite having been engineering staff at BHM for a considerable time, it is not helped that since privatisation of BR signage across the railway has increased but has become less clear and less helpful in wayfinding
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To be honest they were right to do that. The entrance/exit on that side is by far the busiest and always was. Forcing people off to the side exits would have been a bad idea, and the discontinuous A end is an OK price to pay for not having to close the most popular entrance/exit.

I've often interchanged at the A end anyway, it's not a problem, any ticket even vaguely relevant to interchanging at New St* opens the gatelines. It can be preferable if needing the loo as those ones are quieter.

* I once thought it was literally any valid ticket, but I bought a single from Scotscalder to Altnabreac to try that theory out and it wasn't the case, so I expect someone has actually gone through and set up the likely ones.
 
xotGD

xotGD

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CharlieSpotted said:
This exachange might have been in jest, but I do wonder how much of this thread is actually old prejudices about Birmingham itself (rather than New Street) bleeding through...
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Since the problems mainly impact people changing trains, I.e., not actually coming to Birmingham, then I think unlikely.
 
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edwin_m

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Bletchleyite said:
The entrance/exit on that side is by far the busiest and always was. Forcing people off to the side exits would have been a bad idea, and the discontinuous A end is an OK price to pay for not having to close the most popular entrance/exit.
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Particularly as this is the most suitable (though it could be a lot better) interchange with Moor Street and Curzon Street.
 
AlterEgo

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edwin_m said:
Particularly as this is the most suitable (though it could be a lot better) interchange with Moor Street and Curzon Street.
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The original plan envisaged the Moor Street interchange coming out of the New Street entrance and a covered walkway taking people all the way to Moor Street. Alas there is just an open footpath now and the interchange involves navigating a piss soaked tramp tunnel under the Bullring, which does say a lot about how poorly funds were allocated. The station is exceptionally shiny on the outside which cost tens of millions of pounds, but anyone making a common interchange has to smell piss and perhaps even step in it if they're lucky.
 
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Bletchleyite

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AlterEgo said:
The original plan envisaged the Moor Street interchange coming out of the New Street entrance and a covered walkway taking people all the way to Moor Street. Alas there is just an open footpath now and the interchange involves navigating a piss soaked tramp tunnel under the Bullring, which does say a lot about how poorly funds were allocated. The station is exceptionally shiny on the outside which cost tens of millions of pounds, but anyone making a common interchange has to smell piss and perhaps even step in it if they're lucky.
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That's not the New St entrance. That's the Smallbrook Queensway entrance which would have to have been closed if the A end was to be continuous, unless it was only possible to access it from the A end or by passing through two sets of gates. This would have been far worse than what is there now.

With regard to an architect resigning over it, architects often favour their purist style over the imperfect, human oriented use case of a building.
 
AlterEgo

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Bletchleyite said:
That's not the New St entrance. That's the Smallbrook Queensway entrance which would have to have been closed if the A end was to be continuous, unless it was only possible to access it from the A end or by passing through two sets of gates. This would have been far worse than what is there now.

With regard to an architect resigning over it, architects often favour their purist style over the imperfect, human oriented use case of a building.
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No, the original proposal envisioned the covered walkway from the New Street entrance and down the side as per the route of the eventually built and descoped Moor Street Link. The covered idea (which included work to the well established piss dungeon under the Bullring) was knocked on the head quite early on. This is not related to the continuous nature of the A end.
 
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stuartl

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I was at New St the other day and when trying to get through the red zone gateline my e-ticket wouldn't work. The gateline staff looked at my ticket and said I was too early as you are only allowed through no more than 20m before your train.
 
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The Mercian

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stuartl said:
I was at New St the other day and when trying to get through the red zone gateline my e-ticket wouldn't work. The gateline staff looked at my ticket and said I was too early as you are only allowed through no more than 20m before your train.
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Yep I’ve had that as well at the red end of the station. Quite why I’m not allowed onto the concourse 20 mins before is one for better brains than me.

On the wider point of New St and how good it is, I always use the B end concourse and Navigation Road footbridge to change trains because it’s just a massive faff to go through two gate lines to get from P1-5 to P6-12. The A end of the station is good for exiting to Bullring etc etc but it’s rubbish for interchanges. As ever something’s had to give and it’s the interchanges which are probably much less than the entrances/exits. I think the station is much nicer than it used to be but the layout of the whole concourse area is muddled and not intuitive. It’s great if you use it a lot and know what you’re doing and where youve got to be but for the first time or maybe even occasional user it’s not pleasant or intuitive.

On a final point it’s by no means the worst station in the UK.
 
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Djgr

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stuartl said:
I was at New St the other day and when trying to get through the red zone gateline my e-ticket wouldn't work. The gateline staff looked at my ticket and said I was too early as you are only allowed through no more than 20m before your train.
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So a waiting lounge you can't wait in!
 
AlterEgo

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Bletchleyite said:
They do this nonsense at International too, which has no seating "landside" without going back to the airport. Absolutely nonsensical.

I think an hour is more common elsewhere?
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It is likely to do with the former 20 minute frequency on the Avanti services.
 
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Bletchleyite

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AlterEgo said:
It is likely to do with the former 20 minute frequency on the Avanti services.
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I'm sure where that is where it comes from, yes, but it's still nonsensical and shows a situation of caring about the pennies more than customer service, as is usual for Avanti gatelines.

Most people won't get on the wrong train on an Advance. Of those who do, many will get whacked with a new ticket. It's likely the number who are will easily cover the amount lost because the odd few got away with it.
 
1955LR

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stuartl said:
I was at New St the other day and when trying to get through the red zone gateline my e-ticket wouldn't work. The gateline staff looked at my ticket and said I was too early as you are only allowed through no more than 20m before your train.
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I had a similar issue with the red zone gateline trying to get to a platform using an off peak ticket valid on a train due in 10 mins. They said I was too early .
 
BuhSnarf

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I can't say I'm a fan of BNS, I've visited over many years from the old station to the new and it's never been great. Whilst they've certainly improved the above ground atmosphere and the massive glass roof certainly makes things feel a lot more airy.

My biggest issues with the station are, as many have said, the wayfinding, but for me it's usually the way finding to get out of the station in the right direction. Because the station is so big and you can't see out / where the platforms are it's hard to know which way is north in the station and so finding the right exit is often a 5-10 minute walk around the station trying to find the right one and nearly always realising I've headed towards the wrong one and the one I need is all the way back where I was. The signage absolutely does not help, if you're not familiar with Birmingham the "Bullring" exit is likely the only name you'd recognise.

Also, if you're trying to find a lift to get a buggy down to the right platform... well, the signs are AWFUL for this!

It's obviously working well for some regular users but certainly when I've used the station I've heard many, many, many confused passengers. Someone quoted Stratford earlier and I'd agree that is a hodgepodge of a station, but the one thing that makes Stratford easier is that you don't actually have to care about the platform number, you're essentially just following the sign that points towards the DLR or Central Line or Lizzie and so you're essentially just following a coloured strip which is really easy to do.
 
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mmh

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BuhSnarf said:
The signage absolutely does not help, if you're not familiar with Birmingham the "Bullring" exit is likely the only name you'd recognise.
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That's going to be the same in any city you don't know, surely?
 
BuhSnarf

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mmh said:
That's going to be the same in any city you don't know, surely?
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Only if the station has many, many exits! I think it's just echoed by the fact that BNS feels quite disorientating. But certainly in London stations I've found they'll list 'attractions' that are via that Exit.

For example it would be helpful if BNS signposted things like The Mailbox or other landmarks that might help people know which way to go. Again, I'd imagine a good chunk of travellers are probably visiting Birmingham as a one-off/irregular user or tourist so it'd be helpful to help them.
 
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JamesT

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BuhSnarf said:
Only if the station has many, many exits! I think it's just echoed by the fact that BNS feels quite disorientating. But certainly in London stations I've found they'll list 'attractions' that are via that Exit.

For example it would be helpful if BNS signposted things like The Mailbox or other landmarks that might help people know which way to go. Again, I'd imagine a good chunk of travellers are probably visiting Birmingham as a one-off/irregular user or tourist so it'd be helpful to help them.
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You might like this?
Birmingham-Travel-Guide-Grand-Central-signposts.jpg
 
BuhSnarf

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JamesT said:
You might like this?
Birmingham-Travel-Guide-Grand-Central-signposts.jpg
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Ah, okay, that is actually pretty good. I'm guessing it's new or just I've never noticed it!

Although what might be helpful is putting what exit to use for each of those so that they can follow the normal wayfinding signs as I imagine there is just one of these that is pointing in the general direction of the exit, but with the amount of obstacles in the way it can often be quite easy to start heading in a slightly different direction.
 
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JamesT

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BuhSnarf said:
Ah, okay, that is actually pretty good. I'm guessing it's new or just I've never noticed it!

Although what might be helpful is putting what exit to use for each of those so that they can follow the normal wayfinding signs as I imagine there is just one of these that is pointing in the general direction of the exit, but with the amount of obstacles in the way it can often be quite easy to start heading in a slightly different direction.
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I can see a social media post from 3 years ago commenting on it, so not that new.
 
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Merle Haggard

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JamesT said:
You might like this?
Birmingham-Travel-Guide-Grand-Central-signposts.jpg
Click to expand...


I'm puzzled ....

This seems to be inside the station before you reach the exits.

There are only two exits as far as I know, one that leads out to the tram stop immediately outside, and the other that has the approach walk down towards the Bull Ring shopping centre.

So one might reasonably expect the arrows to be only in one plane but at 180 degrees.

Bald Rick said:
According to my dad, who used it daily, it was permanently filthy, confusing, congested, etc. The 1967-2015 version was much better, but he reckons the latest incarnation is much better still.
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The filth was the result of burning coal in locomotives, which isn't a problem now. It had bomb damage in the war, and Government investment in the railways didn't start until the mid 50's One might well expect a station built in the 2010's to be an improvement on that.

What the last two stations lost, compared to the pre 1965 one, was natural lighting. In the current station the concourse on the shopping level has wonderful natural lighting but if you're catching a train it's a dark dungeon. Even though we've discarded coal burning long ago the platforms still fill with fumes. The extractor fans provided achieve a noise level high enough to drown out announcements but don't seem to have a great effect. Incidentally, where do the fumes go?

We'll just have to accept that the designers of New Street want us to visit there to shop and eat, and the comfort and needs of anyone changing trains there is obviously not as important.

But what was lost was the natutral
 
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JamesT

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Merle Haggard said:
I'm puzzled ....

This seems to be inside the station before you reach the exits.

There are only two exits as far as I know, one that leads out to the tram stop immediately outside, and the other that has the approach walk down towards the Bull Ring shopping centre.

So one might reasonably expect the arrows to be only in one plane but at 180 degrees.
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If you look at the map at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Birmingham-New-Street-Station-Map.pdf you will see four exits marked (though the Navigation Street one isn’t particularly relevant for those on the main concourse).
 
xotGD

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satters said:
me neither, but I was talking about Birmingham new st (BHM) not Barnes (BNS)
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I was wondering who would be the first person to make such a tedious comment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

JamesT said:
If you look at the map at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Birmingham-New-Street-Station-Map.pdf you will see four exits marked (though the Navigation Street one isn’t particularly relevant for those on the main concourse).
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The footbridge at the Wolverhampton end of the station has two additional exits, and is the best way to get to the Mailbox. But as far as I'm aware there are no signs to advise arriving passengers of this fact.
 
birchesgreen

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xotGD said:
The footbridge at the Wolverhampton end of the station has two additional exits, and is the best way to get to the Mailbox. But as far as I'm aware there are no signs to advise arriving passengers of this fact.
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The signs do mention street names, of course you need to have some local knowledge. All BHM needs is a bit of better signage to be honest and it would be supa doopa.
 
Dr Hoo

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xotGD said:
The footbridge at the Wolverhampton end of the station has two additional exits, and is the best way to get to the Mailbox. But as far as I'm aware there are no signs to advise arriving passengers of this fact.
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Several people have mentioned this bridge but to be quite clear its fundamental purpose is as an Emergency Exit for all platforms that is structurally independent from the main structure. Bearing in mind that this thread started with a passenger in urgent need of access to a toilet (but unfortunately went very near to some in a Lounge whilst following a crowd to the barriers and also being concerned about finding a litter bin) it is particularly unhelpful that the bridge has no facilities whatsoever. There are no escalators and no lifts either.

The bridge was part of the response to the King’s Cross Underground fire because New Street was categorised as ‘sub surface’. It was only marginally altered as part of the latest rebuild, primarily to tie it in with new external stairs and ramp to Hill Street and Station Street. At the Navigation Street end the Emergency Bridge exit is practically adjacent to the main station exit towards Stephenson Place and the Metro stop. This continues round and merges with an exit from Grand Central itself, down from the upper level.

Apart from appealing to the somewhat small demographic who never want to sit down, never need a toilet, are completely fit, have no significant luggage and are allergic to passing any refreshment facility or shop, the bridge provides no material advantage. Unless there is an emergency evacuation, of course.
 
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