-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Ease of walking off without paying by accident at self checkouts?
- Thread starter Bletchleyite
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
That's quite a spurious comparison, given that it would be illegal to tailgate through a railway ticket barrier! A gate in a random shop does not have nearly the same legal status.
Well that's fair enough.
You didn't mention tailgating. But I can imagine how inconvenient and annoying the railway must be to be endlessly inconvenienced by ticket barriers.
I have a different way of coping with the self serve tills with barriers; what I do is I take the receipt and scan it and then the gate opens, which I find more convenient and quicker than waiting for someone else I can tailgate.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The whole way the objection you quoted is written it sounds straight off a Half Man Half Biscuit lyric!
In all seriousness it might have been annoying the first time I encountered one of these if I didn't take the receipt, but now I know they exist having a glance to see what there is is an easy part of deciding whether to take one or not.
Of course I'm inconvenienced by (and would like to tailgate through) railway ticket barriers! Do you really enjoy the process of proving your entitlement to travel at the most inconvenient moment? But I accept (even agree) that it is the law and do not think I'm more inconvenienced than anyone else.
This doesn't apply to a supermarket barrier, if I can save a few seconds of time and effort by exiting improperly then I will. Same for things like exiting via the entrance if I haven't made a purchase which lots of stores dislike. To be honest I'm surprised this is controversial...
Flange Squeal
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Jul 2012
- Messages
- 1,868
My local ‘big Sainsbury’s’ recently installed these barriers at the main entrance and at the exit to the self checkout areas. I did have an issue when only going in to use Argos, as I walked back to the main entrance with a heavy box to get out and couldn’t work out how to get out of the shop if not making Sainsbury’s purchases! I therefore just pulled the entrance gate open, which set off an alarm and naturally attracted the attention of the security guard, who it turned out had dealt with this many times before. There was actually a discreet exit gate at the main entrance but he said no one knows it’s there, and it has since been moved to a more visible position and signed. The funny thing was I’d actually looked for an exit gate first and couldn’t find one!
While the periodical full or partial rescans can be annoying when you’ve packed your bags perfectly as you’ve gone around the shop only to have them rummaged through, I just have to accept that’s a risk if I choose to use the self scan system. I must admit though, if I’m following someone out the checkout area then I don’t stand and wait for the gate to close to then scan my receipt to open it again. I do just walk out behind them, as it just seems a waste of time given how long the gates stay open. Before anyone says it, no I don’t do that on the railway, but then I’ve never seen a gate on the railway that stays open so long after the person in front has passed through it before it closes. No one has ever pulled me up on it, but then I guess if they do then I’ve got the receipt as I pass through, until I get to the bin (which they’ve installed just past the gates as they were getting people just chucking them on the floor after going through the gates).
While the periodical full or partial rescans can be annoying when you’ve packed your bags perfectly as you’ve gone around the shop only to have them rummaged through, I just have to accept that’s a risk if I choose to use the self scan system. I must admit though, if I’m following someone out the checkout area then I don’t stand and wait for the gate to close to then scan my receipt to open it again. I do just walk out behind them, as it just seems a waste of time given how long the gates stay open. Before anyone says it, no I don’t do that on the railway, but then I’ve never seen a gate on the railway that stays open so long after the person in front has passed through it before it closes. No one has ever pulled me up on it, but then I guess if they do then I’ve got the receipt as I pass through, until I get to the bin (which they’ve installed just past the gates as they were getting people just chucking them on the floor after going through the gates).
londonbridge
Established Member
- Joined
- 30 Jun 2010
- Messages
- 1,896
I had this a couple of years ago on my last trip abroad (I was in France). Hadn’t come across having to scan a receipt to exit the store before, went into a supermarket but couldn’t see what I wanted so walked through the checkout area behind a woman who was paying and found the gate wouldn’t open. A staff member looked at me so I said “I’m not buying anything, you don’t have what I need”. She answered, in English, “you need receipt, wait there”. When the woman who had been paying went to scan out the staff member directed me to follow her through the barrier, saying “ok you can go now”.
I
If only! “Someone will be with you in a minute” - then, five or six minutes after you’ve put your stuff on the conveyor at one till, surly staff member slouches up to the next till along and opens it.
Some large supermarkets have been trialling hours of the day when there's no staffed checkout, to much consternation on social media and from some older shoppers.
A larger Asda I occasionally go to is now unstaffed at the main checkout lanes in the mornings and evenings. They usually won't have anyone available to open one either.
Boots often do this too in larger and smaller shops, however they're pretty customer-focused so they'll usually quickly serve you at a staffed checkout if you ask them to.
And in that five or six minutes one could have self-scanned and left. Customer choice.
To be honest, I'm not surprised about this from ASDA as their customer service and general quality seems to be on the slide, based on my local locations. The larger Tesco locations here always have at least one staffed till open, and are quite quick to put out the "All relief cashiers to the tills" call out over the tannoy if it starts getting busy.
Yes it does seem to be going poorly. And it does seem that Sainsbury's, Tesco and Waitrose do have a policy of always offering staffed checkout if needed, at least in a full size shop.
If one is confident of ability to use the things or hasn’t found that the only ones that take cash are all showing “card only”. The situation I was referring to was occasioned by poorly- printed and applied reduction stickers (creased barcodes and illegible numbers)and a desire not to stress the one person on the self-checkouts any more than they already were.
That seems in disagreement with Hadders post earlier.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Lets not pretend that en****tification of a service is choice.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That word can be overused and in this case is. It was originally coined to refer to online services getting worse for reasons of profit, e.g. stuff like social media no longer being a reverse chronological of your friends' posts. It can probably be extended to other things such as LNER tickets becoming less flexible yet more expensive on the "trial" routes. But this? Nah, it's a sensible measure if it works and a simple mistake if it doesn't, and the auditor-style "we will not comply" is just frankly a bit silly when it's being done as much for the benefit of the honest person as it is for the shop - we all pay if people nick stuff.
Are you really suggesting that waiting 5 or 6 miniutes for a checkout to be staffed is not a degradation in service? Tesco famously used to have their "two in front" rule.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I thought we were talking about the scanning to get through exit gates.
I don't by choice use staffed checkouts so I frankly don't care about them, though for reasons of disability (not stubbornness*) it should really be easy and quick to have one staffed. Another reason to shop at Aldi as they always are in my experience - their whole model is great provided you play along with it properly, which I'm sure the gate moaners won't and will insist on slowing it for everyone packing at the till instead of the packing shelf for example.
* People who don't like self checkouts, do you also look fondly back to when you went up to the desk with your list and they got it for you? Of course that service is still offered - but you rightly have to pay a little extra (and it is only a little) if you want it.
I would recommend reading posts thoroughly before responding to them, we are unlikely to have a productive and interesting discussion if you don't.
The customer choice was using the supermarket that doesn't have a policy of staffed checkouts. Both my local Tesco Extra and Lidl have self-service options (scan as you shop in Tesco, and self-service tills in both), but they also always have at least one staffed till. Hence if I wanted to use a staffed checkout I would use them in preference to a supermarket that does not.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In the end the problem is people wishing to use budget supermarkets, designed for minimum cost and passed on in low prices, and receive premium service. If you want premium service Waitrose, Booths or even Fortnum's is more for that person, but that will of course cost you for the quality because those supermarkets prioritise good service over low prices.
Not that Waitrose don't have self checkouts of course (though Booths only do at two of their busiest stores, Keswick and Windermere) but that's because some of their customers prefer them, there are always loads of staff around to open a manual one if one isn't open, but I don't think I've ever seen a Waitrose where one wasn't, though late at night it's sometimes just the customer service desk doing both roles.
(Booths for the uninitiated is a North West supermarket chain not entirely dissimilar to Waitrose - and with a supply chain agreement with them for some things - but that little bit classier, and prioritising high quality, fresh local food over packaged stuff and ready meals, though it also does sell those things. Expensive but superb service and superb quality. Almost Fortnum's level).
It is of course a reduction in service, though I think using "en****tification" to describe it stretches the concept beyond its original limits to the point of meaninglessness.
But it is also a symptom of our collective revealed preferences, which mean that the Great British Public choose price reductions over quality of service. Even, I suggest, as we also moan about the consequences of our choices. Supermarkets risk more market share by not holding prices down than they do by compromising service - hence the reduction in front line roles and shift to DIY.
Personally, that's a bargain I'm generally happy to make - though the hypersensitivity of self checkout tills is bad for my blood pressure
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's a reduction in service that exists because of price pressure. It hasn't happened to the same extent at the premium brands where they just put the prices up more instead.
I wouldn't call that ens*****fication. That's where quality/service reduces purely for the company's benefit. LNER's fare "trial" is as I note a better example.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Worse than that - they want Fortnum's quality and service at Aldi's prices and whine when they find that to be impossible.
If people accepted say Ryanair for what it is it'd be fine, but they don't. They want Etihad service at Ryanair prices.
Last edited:
"En****tification" though is about the offer of something great for free, and then switching to make it necessary to use a paid service to get the original quality - it's more than just price pressure.
Other than that, I completely agree - though I don't think that gets Ryanair or anyone else off the hook of being expected to work within the law at all times, rather than just when they can't avoid being caught.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I didn't realise the definition was that specific, but if it is then self checkouts aren't an example because the service of using a staffed one isn't chargeable. You could argue that the move from giving your list in at the desk in the 1930s via no picking service for a long time to charging for one sort of is, but a large supermarket is so much better than a small grocery store of the 1940s so I don't think that can really be argued, and in real terms the prices of the goods are much, much lower than back then.
Absolutely, the law is the bare minimum, but too many people expect premium service at a budget price and that doesn't exist.
Lumo is an interesting case in point. I think it is OK for them to have uncomfortable trains with poor legroom, limited luggage allowance and inflexible tickets* in exchange for a cheap fare - not to my taste but it is to the taste of a lot of people. I don't think it's OK for them to have broken toilets and lots of cancellations.
* They don't - the fare range is the same as Avanti basically - but it's just an example.
This is the quality floor in action.
I like Greggs. It is consistent and cheap. I accept they do not keep foot hot to avoid tax and that makes the product cheaper for me (this problem becomes less an issue in busier branches which replenish stuff straight from the oven rapidly!). The taste is acceptable, the service is fine, and I know the experience never falls below a minimum standard.
And as you say, some people have unreasonable expectations. If I am paying £1.10 for a jam doughnut there and the filling is off centre and the sugar coating is a little thin, well that is fine for a quid and within expectations. I could get a Krispy Kreme for three times the price which is usually far better.
Greggs serving me a *stale* product or having a filthy store or hostile staff would fall below that quality floor. But it hasn't happened in a hundred or more visits to many branches. Which is why they are successful.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En****tification for a discussion of the concept:
It's very much through a technology lens, and describes the arc of a number of online services quite well. While the concept is being extended, I agree with you that it doesn't apply well to supermarkets - not least because the whole premise of the supermarket since its invention has been to move towards self service. As you say, if you want service, you go to Fortnums or wherever will provide that service in return for prices that are designed to carry the costs.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I have similar issues with Travelodge. I accept their rooms are basic and they have only one member of staff most of the time to keep cost well down. But hairs in the shower and broken fittings aren't acceptable.
In general I think it's fine to pick your market and pitch your product accordingly but it's not OK not to properly deliver the thing you're setting out to deliver. Cheap ingredients in a Greggs sausage roll e.g. the sausage being mostly rusk? Fine, it's about the cheapest takeaway food product available. Mould on one? Not acceptable.
As ever in life, finding a happy medium that works for you is important. I have been served stale food in a Greggs, but only once in however many hundreds of times I've been in there for the past few years. I rolled my eyes and put the food in the bin, but I didn't complain about it because the price I'd paid was too low to have made it worthwhile to spend time going back to the shop. I still go to Greggs if I fancy it, as that hit rate is totally fine to me.
For some people that thought would actually be enough to completely put them off. And that's fine, for them, they should buy sandwiches from M&S instead.
For some people that thought would actually be enough to completely put them off. And that's fine, for them, they should buy sandwiches from M&S instead.
Egg Centric
Established Member
Wait what is this service called? It sounds great, a mix of the benefits of online shopping and doing the shop yourself.
(I hate self checkouts not because I am against them in principle but because they are usually poorly implemented and it's quicker for a human to do it)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Click and collect. All the supermarkets that offer delivery offer it, usually by shoving it in a delivery van from which you pick it up in the far corner of the car park. Can be handy if you don't want to be in for a delivery and prefer to e.g. collect from near work, but can't be bothered walking round.
Yes, it does mean you have to set up your list online, so it's not quite the same thing as giving in a paper list. But it's close.