Birmingham New Street the worst UK station?

AlterEgo · Monday at 10:07

Captain Bigwig said:
Arguments about signage miss something important, which is that wayfinding is overwhelmingly about contextual clues, and only a very small amount about signage.

That is bang on and what people are missing. It should be instinctive and intuitive where to go. That New Street is our most significant interchange outside London and that it has a novel design unlike any other station are the two factors which mean the concept doesn't work for a lot of people.

Captain Bigwig said:
Almost all the complaints at Birmingham seem to come from people changing trains who know they need to change platforms, go up a set of stairs or an escalator and find themselves in one of the "A" end lounges.
There are then two problems:

1) people finding barriers and assuming they must have gone the wrong way or made a mistake because they weren't expecting to find barriers

2) people knowing which way they want to go, walking that direction and then finding a perspex barrier

100%.

Captain Bigwig said:
Problem (1) causes stress and anxiety because people aren't sure if they're allowed to use their tickets to go out and in again to change platforms. You are, and it's expected, but it's not made clear to people anywhere

Indeed. People are worried about tickets being swallowed and to them, tickets encounter barriers a maximum of twice. Once at the beginning of the trip to let you in and once at the end to let you out (and the ticket may disappear).

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Bletchleyite · Monday at 10:11

AlterEgo said:
Indeed. People are worried about tickets being swallowed and to them, tickets encounter barriers a maximum of twice. Once at the beginning of the trip to let you in and once at the end to let you out (and the ticket may disappear).

That's just not true, there are plenty of termini where the usual way of interchanging involves going out of the gates to the concourse then back in (e.g. Manchester Piccadilly - I expect hardly anyone uses the bridge), and there are other stations where platforms are not all accessed through one gateline e.g. Liverpool Lime St and as mentioned Manchester Piccadilly (though that has been improved so it's only 2 sections now, not 3).

Rail2002 · Monday at 10:18

I wouldn't say it's the worst station but it's definitely poorly designed. The problem is that because it's very much a through station, with no bay platforms, there's no level walkway between them as there is at Manchester Piccadilly or Liverpool Lime Street. It's problematic when there is a last minute platform change as people have to go up and then down again. Wheelchairs and those with pushchairs or heavy luggage have to scramble for the few and often crowded lifts.

I could be wrong but I believe it's accepted on the railway that because of there being seldom bins, for whatever reason, that it's accepted to leave rubbish in a corner and the mobile cleaning operative will pick it up on their rounds (ofcourse bins should be used if there is one nearby).

There should be toilets on both the barrier side and the non - barriered side. Network Rail will likely argue that it's to prevent anti-social behaviour (Birmingham New Street has an acute problem with beggars!) but punishing your custom base because of the behaviour of miscreants isn't the way to go about it. These "Travel Safe Officers" that have started sprouting up (and adding to the ticket price per journey) are supposed to be there to eradicate this issue.

Another problem at New Street is the platforms being very narrow for the footfall, but the station was built long before the increase in rail usage that happened post privatisation.

CharlieSpotted · Monday at 10:30

It's been mentioned a couple of times about narrow platforms... but they're not all narrow, are they?

Platform 1 is really very problematic - other platforms have narrow "pinch points" where structures get in the way, but in general they're not that narrow. The problem with P1, it seems to me, is that it's used for the Avanti London services, and when one of those comes in there's a huge number of people trying to embark/disembark on the narrowest parts of the narrowest platform. Add a wheelchair ramp into the mix and more than half the width of the platform is suddenly unavailable. It can be "single file" at times, shuffling forwards towards the stairs. Being used for long distance services, there are often a number of people with large bags, too, further reducing the available space.

If possible, I'd suggest using P1 for much shorter / less busy services, and also spreading them out so that there's time for the platform to clear before the next one comes in. I understand in terms of signalling etc. that might not be straightforward.

The narrow platform which serves Platform 4C and the top of 4B can also be a problem at times of disruption, when there are too many people hanging about for a train on 4C, but is usually fine. Seasoned station users don't stand on 4C to wait for their train but at the end of it.

The oft-repeated line that 'nothing can be done' about the platform level is a bit defeatist - yes, we can't easily expand it, but I think there are probably small changes that could be made to make better, more sensible, use of it?

WillC · Monday at 15:54

I hate New Street. It's everything a rail station shouldn't be. Utterly confusing to use, to find platforms, change trains, in/out of barriers to find another platform, dark, smelly etc etc.
But it's not a rail station, it's a retail complex with some trains underneath.

Bletchleyite · Monday at 16:06

WillC said:
I hate New Street. It's everything a rail station shouldn't be. Utterly confusing to use, to find platforms, change trains, in/out of barriers to find another platform, dark, smelly etc etc.
But it's not a rail station, it's a retail complex with some trains underneath.

Some of us consider its excellent selection of retail, particularly food, a massive plus side. I often deliberately stop off there for that. If you count upstairs it's probably the best in the country in that regard, with Manchester Piccadilly a close second.

What would you rather, a warm indoor station with lots of food or say windswept Preston with its rubbish pub and its two rubbish little shops? I reckon quite a few here would prefer Preston, but I wouldn't. Or Bristol Temple Meads which has a similarly woeful offering and nothing even vaguely nearby.

Jim the Jim · Monday at 16:17

NCT said:
The Netherlands also have rebuilt stations with split paid areas, and that's even through choice rather than through necessity.

The design of Groningen station is a concession to the fact that each operator requires you to check in/out of that operator specifically. It's not applicable to the design of stations in the UK without pay-as-you-go, and is not the usual model for Dutch stations.

Although in the Dutch connection Utrecht Centraal is an interesting comparison to New Street - lots of through trains, a large concourse over the platforms with staircases/escalators on both sides, and less-used alternative entrances and routes between platforms also provided. It can be confusing if you go the wrong way, but overall it's a lot more user-friendly than New Street.

The Planner · Monday at 16:29

WillC said:
I hate New Street. It's everything a rail station shouldn't be. Utterly confusing to use, to find platforms, change trains, in/out of barriers to find another platform, dark, smelly etc etc.
But it's not a rail station, it's a retail complex with some trains underneath.

Short of taking the roof off and finding another place for the station facilities in the middle of the city centre, what would you do?

stuu · Monday at 16:34

It would be far better if the gate lines were at the north, south and east exits, making the entire concourse the paid area - the mezzanine would be available for non-ticket holders to cross the station. Then it wouldn't matter which exit you used, and it could have huge numbers next to the access to each platform

Dr Hoo · Monday at 16:37

stuu said:
It would be far better if the gate lines were at the north, south and east exits, making the entire concourse the paid area - the mezzanine would be available for non-ticket holders to cross the station. Then it wouldn't matter which exit you used, and it could have huge numbers next to the access to each platform

Which mezzanine is that then?

Bletchleyite · Monday at 16:45

stuu said:
It would be far better if the gate lines were at the north, south and east exits, making the entire concourse the paid area - the mezzanine would be available for non-ticket holders to cross the station. Then it wouldn't matter which exit you used, and it could have huge numbers next to the access to each platform

What mezzanine? There is no way you would include one in the present building above the A and B areas with access from the Bullring side. Those areas have the ceilings too low.

There are reasons for the compromise they used, because the building wasn't new build. New build would have cost hugely more and disrupted the entire network for years.

CharlieSpotted · Monday at 16:45

stuu said:
It would be far better if the gate lines were at the north, south and east exits, making the entire concourse the paid area - the mezzanine would be available for non-ticket holders to cross the station. Then it wouldn't matter which exit you used, and it could have huge numbers next to the access to each platform

Marginally less confusing for occasional station users, maybe, but massively detrimental to virtually everyone else, including people who live and work in Birmingham.

Elecman · Monday at 16:55

Bletchleyite said:
That's just not true, there are plenty of termini where the usual way of interchanging involves going out of the gates to the concourse then back in (e.g. Manchester Piccadilly - I expect hardly anyone uses the bridge), and there are other stations where platforms are not all accessed through one gateline e.g. Liverpool Lime St and as mentioned Manchester Piccadilly (though that has been improved so it's only 2 sections now, not 3).

Plenty of people use the bridge to change platforms

NCT · Monday at 17:09

What's the actual deal with changing trains between blue and green zones (out through one set of barriers and in through the other)? Is it
- permitted and encouraged (i.e. well signed)
- permitted but not encouraged (i.e. not signed / poorly signed)
- not permitted?

Bletchleyite · Monday at 17:10

Elecman said:
Plenty of people use the bridge to change platforms

But a lot go out onto the concourse and many won't even realise there's another way.

My point was that passing through gatelines isn't unusual as a means of interchange, and gatelines won't eat tickets (unless faulty) unless the destination on the ticket is the same as the place where the gate is. There are odd cases where that's a problem (e.g. continuing from Piccadilly to Oxford Road on a Manchester Stations ticket) but it mostly isn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 17:11 ==

NCT said:
What's the actual deal with changing trains between blue and green zones (out through one set of barriers and in through the other)? Is it
- permitted and encouraged (i.e. well signed)
- permitted but not encouraged (i.e. not signed / poorly signed)
- not permitted?

The middle one. No issues with doing it but it's not encouraged through signage. Most of the time a ticket that is likely to need interchange there will open the gates on both sides.

yorksrob · Monday at 17:35

Bletchleyite said:
Some of us consider its excellent selection of retail, particularly food, a massive plus side. I often deliberately stop off there for that. If you count upstairs it's probably the best in the country in that regard, with Manchester Piccadilly a close second.

What would you rather, a warm indoor station with lots of food or say windswept Preston with its rubbish pub and its two rubbish little shops? I reckon quite a few here would prefer Preston, but I wouldn't. Or Bristol Temple Meads which has a similarly woeful offering and nothing even vaguely nearby.

I think I'd prefer Preston, but with an ale bar and a burger king.

NCT · Monday at 17:42

Bletchleyite said:
The middle one. No issues with doing it but it's not encouraged through signage. Most of the time a ticket that is likely to need interchange there will open the gates on both sides.

In which case ...

Dr Hoo said:
We have heard a lot about 'way finding' and 'clear signage', and some people not relating to maps. However, I still feel that, to put it bluntly, some folk just seem to blunder around, oblivious to signage, and subconsciously 'following the crowd'.
I took this photograph as I arrived at New Street earlier this year. It happens to be on Platform 1a but the other 'a' end platforms seem to be similar:
(The description is that it shows stairs indicated as "Way Out", an international "Exit" pictogram, the phrase "All exits via Blue Lounge" and also a back-lit standard green Emergency Exit pictogram. On the adjacent wall is a large sign with an arrow back along the platform to the 'b' end and the legend "All Passengers Please use B end exit for access to all other platforms via the Red Lounge".)
What is the problem for a normally-sighted passenger here?
View attachment 211530

This is actually pretty bad.

Passengers finding themselves at the blue/green end of the station should simply be directed up these escalators / stairs with clearly visible signs saying 'all platforms'.

There should then be signs for 'platforms 1-5' pointing at the barriers that are visible from the top of the escalators/stairs.

Bletchleyite · Monday at 17:44

yorksrob said:
I think I'd prefer Preston, but with an ale bar and a burger king.

It used to have a BK, interestingly, it was down near P3C/4C and I think was a former Casey Jones.

Certainly you could have a station with the retail of New St and the ambiance of Temple Meads, Manchester Piccadilly is close, but if it's one or the other then I'm going for the retail rather than it being pretty.

Rail2002 · Monday at 18:16

Could the barriers be moved to be one long line of barriers running parralel with the Avanti ticket office rather than separate barriers for each zone?

Bletchleyite · Monday at 18:18

Rail2002 said:
Could the barriers be moved to be one long line of barriers running parralel with the Avanti ticket office rather than separate barriers for each zone?

No, because the outermost platforms are right at the edge of the station, there is no way to go round if you did that. And the Bullring side is a very busy entrance.

They have genuinely done the best feasible with the building they had.

Uk02048 · Monday at 20:52

Bletchleyite said:
Some of us consider its excellent selection of retail, particularly food, a massive plus side. I often deliberately stop off there for that. If you count upstairs it's probably the best in the country in that regard, with Manchester Piccadilly a close second.

What would you rather, a warm indoor station with lots of food or say windswept Preston with its rubbish pub and its two rubbish little shops? I reckon quite a few here would prefer Preston, but I wouldn't. Or Bristol Temple Meads which has a similarly woeful offering and nothing even vaguely nearby.

If it were Europe, and considering long vs short term (i mean decades ahead not unitary years) an additional subterranean layer with decent length tunnels surely is the way. Eg for whichever routes it makes sense like eg x city, the NE/SE routes, whatever. But new tunnels emerge south of Bordsley, north of soho, west of selly oak, well east of Saltley etc. Compared to HS2 junket a much better ROI imo.

The Planner · Monday at 22:07

Uk02048 said:
If it were Europe, and considering long vs short term (i mean decades ahead not unitary years) an additional subterranean layer with decent length tunnels surely is the way. Eg for whichever routes it makes sense like eg x city, the NE/SE routes, whatever. But new tunnels emerge south of Bordsley, north of soho, west of selly oak, well east of Saltley etc. Compared to HS2 junket a much better ROI imo.

How would it release capacity on the WCML?

Uk02048 · Monday at 22:38

The Planner said:
How would it release capacity on the WCML?

It wouldn't but should help wales/lichfield/worcester/bristol/leicester flows a bit

Sheridan · Tuesday at 01:58

Bletchleyite said:
Some of us consider its excellent selection of retail, particularly food, a massive plus side. I often deliberately stop off there for that. If you count upstairs it's probably the best in the country in that regard, with Manchester Piccadilly a close second.

What would you rather, a warm indoor station with lots of food or say windswept Preston with its rubbish pub and its two rubbish little shops? I reckon quite a few here would prefer Preston, but I wouldn't. Or Bristol Temple Meads which has a similarly woeful offering and nothing even vaguely nearby.

Temple Meads does have a Greggs, Starbucks and Wetherspoons right outside (about a minute from the main concourse, but I appreciate it can take quite a while to reach that from some of the platforms).

yorksrob · Tuesday at 07:24

Bletchleyite said:
It used to have a BK, interestingly, it was down near P3C/4C and I think was a former Casey Jones.

Certainly you could have a station with the retail of New St and the ambiance of Temple Meads, Manchester Piccadilly is close, but if it's one or the other then I'm going for the retail rather than it being pretty.

There's enough room in the main block at Preston to have a few decent retail opportunities.

tram21 · Tuesday at 07:31

Birmingham NS is absolutely up there as the worst station.

I don't think rural halts can be counted as the worst station, because its passenger numbers match the facilities.

I'm a confident traveler across the world but Birmingham NS is definitely the worst travelling environment. The Internet clearly agrees, it's often described as the depths of hell! :lol:

py_megapixel · Tuesday at 07:35

Bletchleyite said:
It used to have a BK, interestingly, it was down near P3C/4C and I think was a former Casey Jones.

Certainly you could have a station with the retail of New St and the ambiance of Temple Meads, Manchester Piccadilly is close, but if it's one or the other then I'm going for the retail rather than it being pretty.

It can't be just me who finds the ambience of Temple Meads pretty poor.

The subway is dingy and crowded and the ticket hall a bit cramped. Everyone has to enter/exit the station via platform 3 and there aren't enough tickets gates so I always seem to get stuck in a queue. The platforms feel very barren, there's not much on them.

I would agree the train shed is rather splendid but it's easy to get carried away with that and overlook the fact that Temple Meads is really not brilliant as a station. Not the worst, by any means, but not brilliant either.

The Planner · Tuesday at 08:29

Uk02048 said:
It wouldn't but should help wales/lichfield/worcester/bristol/leicester flows a bit

Then its not comparable.

Mikey C · Tuesday at 10:21

py_megapixel said:
It can't be just me who finds the ambience of Temple Meads pretty poor.

The subway is dingy and crowded and the ticket hall a bit cramped. Everyone has to enter/exit the station via platform 3 and there aren't enough tickets gates so I always seem to get stuck in a queue. The platforms feel very barren, there's not much on them.

I would agree the train shed is rather splendid but it's easy to get carried away with that and overlook the fact that Temple Meads is really not brilliant as a station. Not the worst, by any means, but not brilliant either.

TM hasn't been expensively rebuilt though to improve things. Yes it is cramped in places, but that's partially due to the historic architecture making improvement difficult, whereas NS doesn't have that excuse.

Plus NS is the busiest UK station outside London, it needs to work well, and not just for hardened regulars.

Bletchleyite · Tuesday at 10:24

Mikey C said:
TM hasn't been expensively rebuilt though to improve things. Yes it is cramped in places, but that's partially due to the historic architecture making improvement difficult, whereas NS doesn't have that excuse.

It was rebuilt and it was improved. A full rebuild would have been hugely costly and would have disrupted basically the entire English network (and some of Wales) for a couple of years.

Mikey C said:
Plus NS is the busiest UK station outside London, it needs to work well, and not just for hardened regulars.

Just needs the signage fixing really. But for anyone not a regular, if you just ignore the A end you won't have an issue. The B end is just what was there before.

Birmingham New Street the worst UK station?

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