frodshamfella
Established Member
i'm not keen on the place. Normally I'm there as im changing trains. If I can do that at Stafford or Wolverhampton, I definitely prefer to do that.
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Birmingham New Street the worst UK station?
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It’s dreadful. It’s probably OK to regular users. It’s a bonkers design which makes little sense to the occasional user. Who knows what they were thinking? But I’m pre-conditioned and have worked out how to avoid the majority of the silliness by using the footbridge at the Wolverhampton end.
zwk500
Veteran Member
They were thinking that they needed to meet 4 key requirements: (1) maintain non-passenger access across the concourse between the different exits. (2) facilitate the interchanges as smoothly as possible, (3) cater for the demand of people using New Street as a destination or origin, and (4) be able to build whatever they came up without excessive impact to the rail services.
The 3 zones covers (1) and (3), the Red zone allows (2) and it's always possible to leave the Blue or Green zones to change trains, while the design worked with the structure in place to avoid needing to disrupt platforms by demolishing the floor/roof (to which a lot of equipment is mounted), which satisfied (4).
What do you think would have been possible to better achieve (2) and (3) without requiring (1) or (4) to be sacrificed?
For non-regular users it is fine to understand the theory but it always becomes a bit of a "car crash" when you actually do use it.
I don’t even find Euston that bad, with Real time trains. You just need to get ahead of the masses.
Obviously I’m not saying it’s not way too small for its daytime peak and that it doesn’t need its upcoming expansion. But my personal experiences aren’t that bad.
Stossgebet
Member
There were bins on the concourse. All the different ones for various recycling too.
They have been taken away. The fact that Birmingham council had a bin (refuse collection) strike for over a year, lead me to guess that the station bins were taken away then, so as not to attract the household waste of commuters... maybe i put 2 and 2 together, and got 5. But there really is a timeline correlation.
They have been taken away. The fact that Birmingham council had a bin (refuse collection) strike for over a year, lead me to guess that the station bins were taken away then, so as not to attract the household waste of commuters... maybe i put 2 and 2 together, and got 5. But there really is a timeline correlation.
TheSmiths82
Member
Euston is fine unless there are problems, I usually seem to always end up there when there is a fire in Northampton closing that section of the WCML, signal failure at Milton Keynes and a line procession at Stockport all at the same time
I have to agree with the last sentence, given the limitations the designers had to work with, I don't think they did a bad job with the rebuild at all.
Yes there are things that could have been done better, but the same could be said for any big infrastructure project.
My only gripe is wayfinding could be better, even as a semi regular user, I still occasionally come up off of the platform on to the concourse and find myself on the opposite side of the concourse to where I wanted to be.
Straus
Member
I travel with items I can't really leave unattended, so it's preferable to use station toilets. I presume I'm not alone.
New street is by far the worst station I have reason to frequently visit - it's confusing, poorly ventilated and has some of the least helpful staff I've met.
On the plus side it has an M&S and a fairly adequate wetherspoons and there is a nice(ish) area outside the station to wait if you're early.
CharlieSpotted
Member
- Joined
- 21 May 2014
- Messages
- 975
I'm squarely in the "I use New Street regularly and don't really see what's so confusing about it" camp, but I do think it would have helped a lot if there was a way to transfer between the two different A-end 'zones' without going out-and-back-in. In my head it would be a footbridge over the open seating area (behind Ozzy). There might not be a lot of room for it today, but if Leon wasn't there, that might help?
I do think it's not having a continous concourse on the A end (and the resulting "zones") that people find confusing.
I do think it's not having a continous concourse on the A end (and the resulting "zones") that people find confusing.
zwk500
Veteran Member
There's not enough headroom for a bridge between the concourse and food court. The only thing that might be done with that would be to regrade the Moor street facing entrance to enter at Food Court level. But I'm fairly sure that will mean taking out at least one, if not more, restraunts from Grand Central. And it would make the way to exit for Moor Street even more confusing.
Yes. I also feel the departure board could be split into 2 separate boards for 1-6 and 7-12 so that people are naturally more on the correct side than the present single list. Although that would cause it's own shenanigans if trains were swapped or have the platform suppressed during disruption.
Stossgebet
Member
And lets not forget that calling the different colour areas 'lounges', is a grotesque abuse of the English language!
alxndr
Established Member
- Joined
- 3 Apr 2015
- Messages
- 1,690
I’m in the “New Street is dire” camp as well I’m afraid. I don’t think I've ever had a smooth and pleasant experience there, and I shouldn’t have to study and memorise a list of routes and colours to try to navigate it. I don’t have to anywhere else, and I’ve been to almost all of the busiest stations.
The last time I was there I was through the barriers to the Red lounge before disruption was announced. My train vanished from the board and there were some announcements which might have been for Glasgow passengers, but it was so quiet compared to the general chaos it was impossible to tell. I asked someone in a tabard, who directed me to someone else who turned out to be a cleaner, who failed to find a train on a touchscreen journey planner board. I was then directed back through the barriers to customer reception, and then back through the barriers to where I’d come from originally.
On a different journey I had time to kill and went for a walk, ended up doing a lap of the whole station trying to find an entrance…
The last time I was there I was through the barriers to the Red lounge before disruption was announced. My train vanished from the board and there were some announcements which might have been for Glasgow passengers, but it was so quiet compared to the general chaos it was impossible to tell. I asked someone in a tabard, who directed me to someone else who turned out to be a cleaner, who failed to find a train on a touchscreen journey planner board. I was then directed back through the barriers to customer reception, and then back through the barriers to where I’d come from originally.
On a different journey I had time to kill and went for a walk, ended up doing a lap of the whole station trying to find an entrance…
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
There technically is, but it's a long walk via the B end!
In all honesty, I couldn't say as it seems to be different every time. I don't use Birmingham often these days (when I do it's to transfer from XC to Avanti when heading home from trips to Reading though these days I usually go via Euston to avoid the cross country route) but when I have, I always seem to get it wrong and find myself coming up against a barrier I can't cross or some other impenetrable obstacle that means I have to retrace my steps and have another go at getting to whatever platform I'm supposed to be on. It's probably just me being a gumby.
andyjhatton
Member
I suppose you have to know about it, but you can also just dive into the bogs in 'spoons (The London North Western)
50018_Reso
Member
New Street is a hovel. As discussed on a recent rail tour, the council had a once in a generation to redevelop the site without sticking a load of shops over the top of it and they blew it.
As all other Network Rail developments of major railway hubs have provided evidence of, it's less about amenities or the travelling experience but more importantly around maximising retail opportunity that someone has already alluded to on this thread.
As all other Network Rail developments of major railway hubs have provided evidence of, it's less about amenities or the travelling experience but more importantly around maximising retail opportunity that someone has already alluded to on this thread.
Stossgebet
Member
Well, they spent what, half a Billion pound.
And for that, all the travelling public actually got, was a pair of lifts to each platform directly from the concourse, a more spacious concourse and.a couple of additional entrances/exits.
They sold it as 'a new station'. But unlike say, the new station at Reading. Birmingham got no additional platforms, tracks or signals. So no extra capacity or trains. All Birmingham got was a glorified waiting area if you chose to wait in a restaurant. If you choose to wait elsewhere around the station, the half billion bought nothing of value or use, except the lifts.
It was a typical new labour project. It looked expensive. It was expensive, and it did virtually nothing to improve the core public service the building exists for. It's as if putting a nice atrium and a shopping centre into a hospital was described as 'a new hospital', but without any extra nurses, beds, wards, scanners or departments. Personally i think the travelling public were scammed by the politicians, and people fell for it because it's shiny (except the bits they never finished, which of course look unfinished)!
And for that, all the travelling public actually got, was a pair of lifts to each platform directly from the concourse, a more spacious concourse and.a couple of additional entrances/exits.
They sold it as 'a new station'. But unlike say, the new station at Reading. Birmingham got no additional platforms, tracks or signals. So no extra capacity or trains. All Birmingham got was a glorified waiting area if you chose to wait in a restaurant. If you choose to wait elsewhere around the station, the half billion bought nothing of value or use, except the lifts.
It was a typical new labour project. It looked expensive. It was expensive, and it did virtually nothing to improve the core public service the building exists for. It's as if putting a nice atrium and a shopping centre into a hospital was described as 'a new hospital', but without any extra nurses, beds, wards, scanners or departments. Personally i think the travelling public were scammed by the politicians, and people fell for it because it's shiny (except the bits they never finished, which of course look unfinished)!
You do realize how much revenue those retail opportunities directly generate Network Rail?
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Without digging up half of Birmingham city centre, where do you propose these additional tracks and platforms go?
You could double the number of platforms, but they will still be constrained by the tunnels either side of the station.
Stossgebet
Member
I haven't said what they should have done with New Street.
But if you want that answer, then i think they should have made the new Curzon Street street station, like Berlin Hbf, with an underground railway. Costs a lot more, but young get a lot more bang for buck, and potentially save on the need for the Bordesley chords and additional Moor St platforms.
But just on the New St rebuild itself, they could have achieved the retail offer, without clogging up the central atrium, and creating all the different gated so called 'lounges' to the platforms.
And the turnover of failed business within the food area upstairs tells us that there are economic problems with what is sustainable within what they have built. Starting with the fact that John Lewis was chosen as the 'anchor tenent' which didn't last long at all. So perhaps the revenue generated for Network Rail by the new shopping centre, is not particularly great if you are one of those that lost their job and everything else associated with losing a job, in order for Network Rail to claim additional revenue!
As for additional platforms at New St itself. That option was lost a generation ago, when they dug a great big hole next to the Derby tunnel, and put the Bull Ring shopping centre in the hole, rather than build an extra 2 tracks, and put the Bull Ring on top.
There was never any joined up thinking! Each generation just putting a sticking plaster of their own over the problem.
But if you want that answer, then i think they should have made the new Curzon Street street station, like Berlin Hbf, with an underground railway. Costs a lot more, but young get a lot more bang for buck, and potentially save on the need for the Bordesley chords and additional Moor St platforms.
But just on the New St rebuild itself, they could have achieved the retail offer, without clogging up the central atrium, and creating all the different gated so called 'lounges' to the platforms.
And the turnover of failed business within the food area upstairs tells us that there are economic problems with what is sustainable within what they have built. Starting with the fact that John Lewis was chosen as the 'anchor tenent' which didn't last long at all. So perhaps the revenue generated for Network Rail by the new shopping centre, is not particularly great if you are one of those that lost their job and everything else associated with losing a job, in order for Network Rail to claim additional revenue!
As for additional platforms at New St itself. That option was lost a generation ago, when they dug a great big hole next to the Derby tunnel, and put the Bull Ring shopping centre in the hole, rather than build an extra 2 tracks, and put the Bull Ring on top.
There was never any joined up thinking! Each generation just putting a sticking plaster of their own over the problem.
50018_Reso
Member
Yes I do. But Network Rails function is not to "generate" revenue as it was brought back in house. But they still need to generate additional revenue for the rest of the needless crap they spend their money on.
Get rid of the revenue from NR's retail portfolio and you suddenly have a big hole in the finances.
50018_Reso
Member
Then Notwork Fail should stop wasting money on rubbish that does not need money spending on.
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 15 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 19,687
This one gets dragged up all the time, it genuinely wouldn't have done anything. You couldn't put a significant amount of extra trains in as you gain no capacity elsewhere, as well as the fact it would have triggered the entire resignalling of New St way earlier than it could have been afforded.
Sorry but that's just such a facile take. NR depends on this income and the reason BHM is confusing isn't because there's a shopping centre surrounding it. It's because the lounge concept is novel and therefore counterintuitive; people are used to stations being laid out a certain way. I dislike this arrangement and find it irritating every time I pass through.
The Pelican
Member
New street's biggest problem is that it's hard to see the trains from the main concourse area- several large gaps cut into the floor would make it much more like Edinburgh Waverley, which is confusing but manageable.
(on the other hand, the attractive central light well is a great improvement on the pre-2010 station!)
(on the other hand, the attractive central light well is a great improvement on the pre-2010 station!)
Uk02048
Member
Its an awful station. Poor platform ventilation, dark and platforms FAR too narrow. Poor platform access even with the a/b/c stairs/escalators plus some lifts - of which some are always not working. Toilets are poorly signposted, access from street dire, silly one way at navigation street. Pointless "lounges", poor flow, too much use of limited space for retail. If connecting, usually things go wrong. I could go on, but as a major city its poor. Sure, a lot worse stations out there but come on this is supposed to be the 2nd city.
Oh, and for how many years has there been a water leak with pleasant buckets to catch the water at navigation street egress - in both sets of stairs. Great experience.
50018_Reso
Member
I never said myself that BHM was confusing. NR waste money on rubbish that does not improve the passenger experience that was the point I was trying to get across.
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Yes, but not in isolation. You dont like the shops, and in my view the station is bad for reasons other than that. It's just a poor concept. No way NR is going to give up its rental income even if it didn't allegedly waste so much money. Because regardless, it reduces the burden on the taxpayer in terms of subsidy, waste or no waste.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
I’m staggerered. We are always told that the Edinburgh platform numbering makes perfect sense if viewed from the International Space Station but from concourse level it seems completely random, quite apart from no fewer than five unique lines of approach on foot to the various ‘segments’. At least New Street’s platforms are in numerical order and basically parallel (noting the slight 4c anomaly).
What people don’t seem to remember is that the huge atrium takes away a huge amount of former retail space in the old Palisades. It also takes away an area of former multi-storey car parking. There are far fewer trading units than were there before, upstairs. The units at concourse and ‘lounge’ level are virtually all traveller-related rather than comparison goods. For example, living in a deep rural area means that a pharmacy and a vitamin shop are incredibly useful for a quick visit whilst changing trains.
The ‘retail’ objection is grossly overdone IMHO.