jldavies455
Member
I have always wondered what the last thing was. I am guessing it was probably a wagon in departmental service but also the last in regular service would be nice to know
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What was the last pre-nationalisation built rolling stock on the mainline?
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brooklynbound
Member
I may be wrong but I have a feeling it was a Gresley buffet car running out of Liverpool Street.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Apologies. Mixing pre-grouping with pre-nationalisation so my answer is wrong!
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Apologies. Mixing pre-grouping with pre-nationalisation so my answer is wrong!
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Candidates might be WW1 'Warwells' that were bought after that war by several pre-group companies. Some were converted for engineers' use later and survived almost un-noticed until very recently.
One of the coaches in the last but one Royal Train was based on the LNWR General Manager's saloon. Not sure when it was withdrawn, but after spending some time, in the ownership of the NRM in open storage, it's now restored to original at Butterley.
One of the coaches in the last but one Royal Train was based on the LNWR General Manager's saloon. Not sure when it was withdrawn, but after spending some time, in the ownership of the NRM in open storage, it's now restored to original at Butterley.
eastwestdivide
Established Member
Paul Bartlett’s website has photos of some 1914-built SECR ballast brakes lasting to at least 1985. See
I’ve a photo of one of them too, but no access to post it at the moment. Also recall a thread about them on rmweb, but can’t find it at the moment (search there isn’t great right now)
SECR & SR Shark ballast plough ZUV ZUW
The SECR introduced a single ballast brake (illustrated here) in 1914 which became a standard design on the SR with 3 built in 1932 and 8 by BR in 1949. These vans were long lived, as all were equipped with vacuum brake. A drawing is in Bixley et al SECR wagons.
paulbartlett.zenfolio.com
I’ve a photo of one of them too, but no access to post it at the moment. Also recall a thread about them on rmweb, but can’t find it at the moment (search there isn’t great right now)
The Vale of Rheidol Railway's carriages 4997 and 4998 seem (from Wikipedia; I don't have a better source) like they barely don't qualify for the answer, having been built in 1923 and in continuous service since (but not on the mainline since 1989).
mailbyrail
Member
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the 'crocodile' unbraked GWR bogie-well wagons were built before the First World War and still in service in the late 1970s - I think they were the oldest in use around 1978 at least, although I doubt they saw much use by then
Helvellyn
Established Member
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395 and 396, built 1908 as King Edward VII's and Queen Alexandria's saloons lasted until the 1977 Silver Jubilee. They were East Coast Joint Stock. There was also an East Coast Joint Stock luggage van that lasted just as long.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
As seen on Michael Palin's TV programme "Confessions of a Trainspotter", the observation car used on the Kyle Line as late as 1980 was an ex-West Coast Joint Stock car built in 1892 (five years before the line was built). Modified at some point with an observation end, new underframe and Gresley bogies.
www.flickr.com
Kyle line observation car
In the late 1970s, an observation car was reintroduced to the summer 10:55 Inverness - Kyle of Lochalsh and return working. A variety of vehicles were used, initially this former West Coast Joint Stock saloon no. 45018. Dating originally from 1892 it was rebuilt several times to incorporate an...
www.flickr.com
jldavies455
Member
apologies all,
when I said pre grouping, I did mean nationalisation silly me
pre grouping is interesting as well however
when I said pre grouping, I did mean nationalisation silly me
pre grouping is interesting as well however
The 2 Thompson buffets 1705 and 1706 both outlasted the Gresleys. They were transferred to Scotland and worked the West Highland at least to 1977.
1706 became a mess coach at Penmanshiel after the tunnel collapsed.
D6130
Established Member
....and, IIRC, the very similar Thompson-designed officers' saloon - converted into an observation car - ran on the Fort William-Mallaig line between 1981 and 1984.
Gloster
Veteran Member
Quite a few pre-nationalisation SR parcel vans and LMS former Bogie Brakes lasted into the 1980s and many went into Departmental service after C&D parcels traffic finished. However, i suspect that the last wagons were or are some little used Departmental special purpose wagons that see little use, so aren‘t worn out, but are still cared for as they are very useful when they are needed.
jldavies455
Member
The 38 stock has to be the last in revenue service, although it wasn't ever owned by the big 4
Do parts of vehicles count? The frames of some of the SR Queen Mary brake vans and some emu carriages lasted a very long time, the latter as evidenced by the stock involved in the Cannon Street accident in 1991.
In terms of complete vehicles, would any of the brakedown cranes be in with a shout?
In terms of complete vehicles, would any of the brakedown cranes be in with a shout?
jldavies455
Member
I suppose so?
I think the steam cranes went in the 70's
I think the steam cranes went in the 70's
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The LNER owned some Tube stock as part of a complicated sharing arrangement arising from the LT takeover of their routes for Northern Heights. I think this was 38 stock but I'm not certain. GWR may have done similar for the Central Line extensions, as I think they did with sub-surface stock on the Hammersmith & City, but again I'm unsure of the details.
Gloster
Veteran Member
The majority of the Siphon G that survived into the 1980s were BR-built and were in Newspaper traffic, but two GWR ones did survive until around 1981 in general parcels traffic. (And remember that the empty News vans were normally worked back to London in parcels trains for the next days pile of Bingo and Tots when it was hot off the press.)
The arrangements under which Underground (LPTB and predecessor) services were extended and worked over 'Main Line' (Big 4) lines were, from a legal perspective, varied and complex.
My understanding is that, for the Northern and Central line extensions over the LNER under the 'New Works Programme' of the late 1930s, the LNER remained the owner of those parts of the system, and the services over them, though worked as, and appearing to be, LPTB services, remained, in some sense LNER services. For which 289 cars of 1938 stock were bought by, and were the property of, the LNER, for their share of the services - but, apart from the 'Property of the LNER' plates, were indisinguishable from those of the LPTB, and were worked as a single fleet. Although some were (theoretically) for the Central Line extension, all went to the Northern Line... I believe some of them did end up on the Isle of Wight.
There was a similar arrangement for the District line extension from Bow to Upminster over the LTSR/Midland/LMSR.
The H&C (including its own trains) was jointly owned by the Metropolitan and GWR. Don't know what the status of their replacements was.
After 1948 the BTC had an exercise to sort all this out, with lines and trains being vested in the LTE where appropriate.
Big Jumby 74
Established Member
Without reading the above posts in detail, some of my own observations from years past (later 70's on) include Gresley buffet cars in main line service trains, but most were vehicles relegated to the Engineers Dept's (various), from SECR Birdcage brakes, to brake vans of various SECR, GWR, LMS, SR types, and numerous ex SR vans (BY/PMV/CCT), Maunsell, Bulleid, Stanier carriages various, not to mention a good few pre BR 12T vanfits and open wagons that had entered a new life with the Civil Eng. Dept.
Being located on the Southern as I was, these (often) foreign vehicles on the patch were of some interest, the rarest being ex LNE types. Parcel vans of various types, mostly 4w CCT's in the 12xx and 13xx number range, but also a few 6w BZ vans in the 706xx/707xx number range were not uncommon.
Being located on the Southern as I was, these (often) foreign vehicles on the patch were of some interest, the rarest being ex LNE types. Parcel vans of various types, mostly 4w CCT's in the 12xx and 13xx number range, but also a few 6w BZ vans in the 706xx/707xx number range were not uncommon.
In similar vein - though not as long-lived- the 1940 Waterloo and City stock , which had the distinction of spending its entire life working the same trains (for obvious reasons) - no cascade onto humbler duties!
Merle Haggard
Established Member
In the last WR 'Circuit Working of Carriage Sets' for Summer 1976 - the last one I kept - Siphon G's are still included in booked formations. The WR 'invented' the code, "SG", for them rather than using 'GUV'.
//
The Thompson cars 1705/6 although of Thomson design didn't enter service until early 1948 so perhaps not strictly 'pre-Nationalisation'.
The survival of LMS design sleeping cars don't seem to have been mentioned, although many were built in BR days. The 12 wheelers were, I think, the last passenger coaches in service with Mansell wheels.
There were quite a few pre-nationalisation designs built by BR; amongst the most unusual must be the 6 wheel Prize Cattle Vans to GW design but allocated to the Southern and painted green . When a shortage of steel (it seems) caused the cancellation of the order for (steel bodied) BR Standard HBs it seemed to trigger the construction of LNER-design wooden-bodied ones for the LMR. Curiously, the LMR diagram differs in dimensions but only to the extent of less than 1".
Friary Yard
Member
Occasional LMS Sleeping Cars were in use on the 00.55 Paddington to Penzance in the early 1970's The Paddington to Penzance Newspaper Train used converted Siphon G's complete with gangway connections and staff toilets throughout the 1970's and maybe beyond and further Siphon G's were converted to Enparts Vans for use between Laira and Swindon being sent from Plymouth Friary by the afternoon Class 7 Freight and, being a coaching stock rather than freight vehicle, were required to be conveyed as an exceptional or out of gauge load. EXLO and CAWCROS for those here who had followed the thread on Telegraphic Codes.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
I can't find the old copy of the Marshalling Circular I have but I recollect that the overnight Paddington - West Wales via Gloucester train, although conveying passenger coaches, was really a newspaper train and conveyed Siphon Gs - and shown as 'SG', as well has the penzance. Did some clerking at RHQ Paddington on parcels & news, lots of traffic then (late 1970s) now all gone. The days of the Weekend Colour Supplement sent at the end of the week in enormous quantities, rates varied each week according to no. of pages and print run.
It was critical getting OGLO (out-of gauge load) clearance from the DCE for coaching stock on freight trains from the Western to Willesden. About 1971 someone sent an ex GW coach converted to an Engineers' one without asking first - a crucial tunnel was involved, can't remember which - but its exterior handles and the associated crucial equipment were neatly removed so it arrived with the doors swinging open. GWR was 9' 3" over handles, everywhere else was 9' 0" I think. The clearance issue was not so much running lines (apart from that tunnel) but more freight loops and sidings, where the "6 foot" wasn't as much as its name suggests.
Need to distinguish between actually built before 31 December 1948, by the companies, and those built to the company designs (often with a lot of left over company material), as the first Mk1 did not appear until late 1951, and there was a large amount of stock built to the designs of Hawksworth, Bulleid, Stanier and Thompson in the intervening period, and indeed some further new designs to those patterns built well into the mid-1950s. Swindon built a new batch of Auto-Trailers in 1954, though they weren't needed for long, and the GWR-pattern Fruit vans (which was their telegraphic code more than a description of the contents) until 1960.
Spartacus
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Technically Network Rail still employs some LNER stock, the 6 wheeled independent ploughs are built on LNER tender chassis, I believe from V2s.
Fifteen withdrawn V2s were sent to Swindon in 1964 so that snowploughs could be constructed on their tender chassis, while the actual locos were subsequently scrapped in the works. Some V2s were also sent to Cowlairs Works for the same purpose. The tenders would have been constructed by the LNER between 1936 and 1944 when the locos were built.
This happened from time to time with ex-GWR rolling stock. The steam locos with 18.5" diameter cylinders were a principal issue, striking lineside structures and even platforms, maybe just marginally but sufficient. I recall Taunton's old stalwart Hall 4932 on shed with scrape marks down its left hand cylinder cover, nobody knew how, and apparently services over the West London line to the Southern with WR locos had various misadventures over time. It may have been theoretically in gauge, but with small misalignments of track and structure, what just missed for everything else was caught by a Western loco.