Can you use the return portion of a day return ticket if you do not use the first outward journey ticket?

AlterEgo said:

Were you using a paper ticket or an eticket? And no error codes like "return already used" or "not valid at this time"? That seems like a big issue with the gates at Waterloo to be honest if they are permitting travel with what is supposed to be an invalid ticket.

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I had a paper ticket, remember the guy took them, he couldnt have taken them if they were on my phone - or maybe he wouldve snatched the whole thing who knows! oh my tickets never works at waterloo because they always have the locks on the gates so have to manually check most.

and to correct you, it is a valid ticket. I would have thought e-tickets with the return scanned first WOULD work, but would not if the outward journey part had already been scanned, not sure though someone would have to test it.

waterpoo said:

Yes I would have thought it would clearly flag, and in fact I believe the outward part of the ticket wouldnt even scan correctly to let you through the gates?

It is more a question of, if one accidentally buys a return ticket the wrong way round, why waste money buying a whole new return when you could use the return as a valid ticket and then travel back on a separate new single ticket or a coach (either would be cheaper than a whole new return).

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Surely you'd just get the ticket refunded and but the correct version?

waterpoo said:

I had a paper ticket, remember the guy took them, he couldnt have taken them if they were on my phone - or maybe he wouldve snatched the whole thing who knows! oh my tickets never works at waterloo because they always have the locks on the gates so have to manually check most.

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So at Waterloo you were seeing members of staff who let you through to board your train and therefore one can argue gave you permission to travel on seeing your ticket, right?

simonw said:

Surely you'd just get the ticket refunded and but the correct version?

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can you just refund tickets like that? I have always struggled to and the rules have changed now I believe you cannot refund them on the day of travel they are for?

Most also charge a refund fee, that money also takes time to come back to ones account. Think of the people who arnt as cash liquid to be buying multiple returns after a mistakenly bought one.

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AlterEgo said:

So at Waterloo you were seeing members of staff who let you through to board your train and therefore one can argue gave you permission to travel on seeing your ticket, right?

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Sorry what do you mean? I travelled IN to waterloo, not out.

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waterpoo said:

can you just refund tickets like that? I have always struggled to and the rules have changed now I believe you cannot refund them on the day of travel they are for?

Most also charge a refund fee, that money also takes time to come back to ones account. Think of the people who arnt as cash liquid to be buying multiple returns after a mistakenly bought one.

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Sorry what do you mean? I travelled IN to waterloo, not out.

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but I think I get your point.

waterpoo said:

can you just refund tickets like that? I have always struggled to and the rules have changed now I believe you cannot refund them on the day of travel they are for?

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You can't now, no. Not for several months.

waterpoo said:

Sorry what do you mean? I travelled IN to waterloo, not out.

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@Kite159 is on about the use of the outward portion after the inward here, which would be in relation to the other occasions you bought the same ticket.

To clarify they said:

What isn't valid is trying to use the outward portion to travel back to A later in the day. If using etickets it will flag up when scanned, the wording is something along the lines of "return used at station B at XX:YY".

That's what we are talking about.

AlterEgo said:

You can't now, no. Not for several months.


@Kite159 is on about the use of the outward portion after the inward here, which would be in relation to the other occasions you bought the same ticket.

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Oh I have never used an invalid outward ticket at Waterloo, so no worries on that front. It's why I wanted to be sure the return was in fact valid, so I was legally travelling, I am truly not the evader I have been painted as.

I believe what you're saying is that rail staff manually checking your ticket to let you through the gate could be seen as permission to travel, have I got that right? It will probably be a useful bit of information for people perusing this forum regardless if it doesn't apply to me.

Or if using A & B is hard to understand, say A is London Waterloo & B is Basingstoke.

You can buy a day return from Waterloo to Basingstoke, throw away the outward part (to Basingstoke) and travel to Waterloo using the return portion. What you can't then do is use the outward part later in the day to return to Basingstoke.

If using paper tickets, the barriers at Waterloo (or Basingstoke) have no idea if the tickets are being used the wrong way round. E-tickets are different as scans are logged within the code history. Most of the staff will probably just glance at the ticket, see it's a day return to Basingstoke, only a few will likely investigate it further (ie someone using the outward portion of an anytime day return in the afternoon/evening might raise flags, or if the tickets were printed earlier in the day)

Kite159 said:

Or if using A & B is hard to understand, say A is London Waterloo & B is Basingstoke.

You can buy a day return from Waterloo to Basingstoke, throw away the outward part (to Basingstoke) and travel to Waterloo using the return portion. What you can't then do is use the outward part later in the day to return to Basingstoke.

If using paper tickets, the barriers at Waterloo (or Basingstoke) have no idea if the tickets are being used the wrong way round. E-tickets are different as scans are logged within the code history. Most of the staff will probably just glance at the ticket, see it's a day return to Basingstoke, only a few will likely investigate it further (ie someone using the outward portion of an anytime day return in the afternoon/evening might raise flags, or if the tickets were printed earlier in the day)

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no part of what you previously said was hard to understand dont worry, thanks for the info. Do you agree with AlterEgo's point around permission to travel being granted as part of the manual checks and allowance through the gates?

waterpoo said:

Oh I have never used an invalid outward ticket at Waterloo, so no worries on that front.

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No you were just buying reverse direction return tickets for a load more than the single fare and throwing the outward portion away every time. And returned every time using other transport. Becuase let's not forget - you did this often and railed against the cheek of the railway to investigate it in the other thread before deciding late on you would try to frame it as an error.

waterpoo said:

It's why I wanted to be sure the return was in fact valid

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The return portion is valid to use before the outward but it invalidates the outward for use. So *when you were stopped* you were doing nothing wrong; the ticket was withdrawn so they can investigate your previous purchases, for which they may sue you.

waterpoo said:

I believe what you're saying is that rail staff manually checking your ticket to let you through the gate could be seen as permission to travel, have I got that right?

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There's an argument it can be seen as authorising travel, though that is very fraught with danger as many people believe permission has to be explicit and not by omission.

AlterEgo said:

No you were just buying reverse direction return tickets for a load more than the single fare and throwing the outward portion away every time. And returned every time using other transport. Becuase let's not forget - you did this often and railed against the cheek of the railway to investigate it in the other thread before deciding late on you would try to frame it as an error.


The return portion is valid to use before the outward but it invalidates the outward for use. So *when you were stopped* you were doing nothing wrong; the ticket was withdrawn so they can investigate your previous purchases, for which they may sue you.


There's an argument it can be seen as authorising travel, though that is very fraught with danger as many people believe permission has to be explicit and not by omission.

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You travel to London Paddington at 8:30 every Monday on a off-peak childs ticket, you then bunk the bus, before not tapping on the overground and travelling to beauty school, where you are getting an advanced Level 4 in laser hair removal.

We can all make up fake stories about strangers on the internet Mr Alterego.

Good thing it is not an argument I need to make then. Thanks for your help, have a great night.

And finally, for your record, If you were actually there that day, you would see me telling them I bought it the wrong way round by mistake, as was the case, I dont believe I've ever said anything to the contrary!

waterpoo said:

You travel to London Paddington at 8:30 every Monday on a off-peak childs ticket, you then bunk the bus, before not tapping on the overground and travelling to beauty school, where you are getting an advanced Level 4 in laser hair removal.

We can all make up fake stories about strangers on the internet Mr Alterego.

Good thing it is not an argument I need to make then. Thanks for your help, have a great night.

And finally, for your record, If you were actually there that day, you would see me telling them I bought it the wrong way round by mistake, as was the case, I dont believe I've ever said anything to the contrary!

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At the end of the day, this part of the forum is for giving advice. It isn't the forum you have to convince that you made a mistake and bought the ticket the wrong way round and that this is the only time you have done so.

Gold luck with convincing swr.

simonw said:

At the end of the day, this part of the forum is for giving advice. It isn't the forum you have to convince that you made a mistake and bought the ticket the wrong way round and that this is the only time you have done so.

Gold luck with convincing swr.

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I have really enjoyed the conversation and advice I have been given, I dont have much to live for so it has been fun interacting with people on here.

Thanks, as we can all tell I autistically love legal fine print and arguing - so it just might be a good outlet!

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simonw said:

At the end of the day, this part of the forum is for giving advice. It isn't the forum you have to convince that you made a mistake and bought the ticket the wrong way round and that this is the only time you have done so.

Gold luck with convincing swr.

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sorry one more ask, would it be possible for you to look into the price disparity between return tickets for opposite directions of travel? So that it doesnt look like one is defrauding the railway if they make mistakes and buy the opposite way round? Not sure if it's in your remit - but that would completely solve this problem.

Just a reminder that the buried lede of the entire discussion is the OP's historic habits of buying the same ticket, as per their hidden thread. That is why the ticket was withdrawn via TIR and that is their principal concern - having to evidence and justify previous journeys where the train company may allege the OP caused them a loss.

The previous thread was hidden; in that thread multiple experienced members explained how the OP's story didn't add up. Such as the initial explanations about Trainline adding on £9 in fees on a one way ticket making it actually more sense to buy a reverse direction return instead of a single like everyone else was exposed as nonsense, and then late in the day they decided it might be better to frame the idea as a mistake. This was after a rant about how the train companies are all unfair and why can I *not* save money doing this one cool trick, what about corporate tax evasion etc etc etc.

The thread developed and not necessarily to the OP's advantage. It transpired they got their tickets confiscated and this left them in the position where they had to get an on-the-day coach back to somewhere some distance past their boarding station which would have also not been that cheap.

But the train company will know they've been buying reverse fares habitually. Because it's all online!

OP: at some point you might get a very nasty letter from the train company trying to recover X times £16 for however many journeys you have taken, but if you are simply honest with people here about what has been going on we can help you structure a letter with some legal arguments about how the company can only recover its actual losses, and not write off what has already been paid to it. This would result in the amount owing being relatively small - just the difference in fares, which could be paid easily. It's not my problem. You're the one in trouble here and you will be in a lot more trouble if you cannot evidence any of what you have said previously to SWR. I don't really care much what happens but it does bother me when train companies try to use threats to extract more money than they are due. Be under no illusions though that the train company will win in the county court as cases are decided on the balance of probabilities.

Was your ticket "legal" when you were stopped? Yes. But that's not actually the problem you're facing.

Best of luck convincing SWR, who were not born yesterday.