Union Jack-style Great British Railways branding at major Glasgow station angers Scottish government officials

WAB · Wednesday at 21:57

Coleridge said:
It's not a question of independence - I have no desire for Welsh independence, for example. It's simply a matter of respecting other parts of the UK.

The Union flag flies alongside the Red Dragon at Cardiff Central, and the BR house flag flies next to the TfW flag. This hasn't yet reached the press...

RailUK Forums

Port Road · Wednesday at 21:59

Geeves said:
Why do you believe the results of a second vote would be different to the first? If the second vote results in folks wanting to stay should we arrange a third? When exactly would it end.

There's plenty of English here that are absolutely biting their tongues just like you are and that's fine.

When I say doing well I speak at least from a transport perspective. Scottish railways are getting the investment lines in England could only dream of and good for them!

-Edit for clarity-
That's fair enough on the railways issue, that's what we voted for. However, re. staying in the 'union'; factually the Scottish nation are sovereign (look it up) and it is not in any English prime minister's gift to decide on such matters. The Scottish nation should decide, not the English media. Democracy and all that. I'll go back to biting my tongue.

WAB · Wednesday at 22:17

rmHawk765 said:
Should've been called Rail England, it was so obvious nonsense like this would happen. GBR explicitly is not going to touch Wales or Scotland therefore the current branding is nonsensical and rather than trying to figure out why this lady is complaining about a sticker instead of fixing issues with the actual railway, the issue could've been averted in the first place. The double arrows and the plain white signage already used by GBR are a perfect fit for stations with major service to both England and Wales or Scotland.

Aside from the InterCity services from Berwick and Carlisle up to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Inverness and Aberdeen? Apart from the System Operator and Route Services HQ functions? GBR is not going to have an insignificant involvement in Wales and Scotland.

TT-ONR-NRN · Wednesday at 22:21

rmHawk765 said:
Should've been called Rail England, it was so obvious nonsense like this would happen. GBR explicitly is not going to touch Wales or Scotland therefore the current branding is nonsensical and rather than trying to figure out why this lady is complaining about a sticker instead of fixing issues with the actual railway, the issue could've been averted in the first place. The double arrows and the plain white signage already used by GBR are a perfect fit for stations with major service to both England and Wales or Scotland.

Rail England sounds so... just unnecessarily like it's trying to be commercial and quirky (though it's not as bad as BritRail)... why not just English Rail :lol:

Djgr · Wednesday at 22:27

Davester50 said:
40.5% of votes at the 2026 election for SNP/Green and 58.2% for parties that vote for the Union, by the way.

...although that's not how a referendum works

Merle Haggard · Wednesday at 22:28

TT-ONR-NRN said:
Rail England sounds so... just unnecessarily like it's trying to be commercial and quirky (though it's not as bad as BritRail)... why not just English Rail

Reversing the natural sounding order of Adjective/Noun was thought catchy by marketing people . . . about 50 years ago ...

rmHawk765 · Wednesday at 22:41

Merle Haggard said:
Reversing the natural sounding order of Adjective/Noun was thought catchy by marketing people . . . about 50 years ago ...

I see it the opposite way to be honest, 'Rail England' sounds more contemporary to me, but perhaps it isn't much better than GBR :lol:

trei2k · Wednesday at 22:53

AlterEgo said:
The Union Jack is not a provocative symbol. You don't live in West Belfast.

Sorry, as someone that lives in Glasgow and has done for the majority of my life, I can very much tell you it is.

The west of Scotland is still brightened by sectarian issues, whilst things have improved, the inclusion of the union flag colours would be best avoided.

For those unaware, the Union flag is heavily associated with protestant side of the sectarian divide.

AlterEgo · Wednesday at 23:01

trei2k said:
Sorry, as someone that lives in Glasgow and has done for the majority of my life, I can very much tell you it is.

The west of Scotland is still brightened by sectarian issues, whilst things have improved, the inclusion of the union flag colours would be best avoided.

For those unaware, the Union flag is heavily associated with protestant side of the sectarian divide.

There were literally union flags all over the lion's share of Glasgow Central Station which nobody has moaned about. They aren't "provoking" anyone. They've been put there by GBR because those are the colours of the brand, not by the Orange Order to mark territory.

What's going to happen when you all finally get some big red white and blue trains there? Green Brigade going to to a die-in or something? Have you prepared for that eventuality?

Bantamzen · 2026-09-03T07:31:55+0100

Crikey this thread exploded quickly, over a simple mistake that was quickly rectified. It was probably just a poorly worded contract that didn't properly specify which gates should have the stickies applied to them.

There are far, far more important things in the world for Transport Secretaries or indeed any senior politicians to worry about, even with the railways.

styles · 2026-09-03T07:52:14+0100

Deepgreen said:
Why won't it?

Great British Railways should mean exactly that unless or until Scotland gains independence. The nationalisation philosophy should embrace all British main line railways, or the integration currently lacking will not return properly.

The operation of ScotRail, Caledonian Sleeper, and Transport for Wales are devolved matters.

Also note that Merseyrail is the responsibility of the Liverpool City Region, and the London Overground and Elizabeth Line are devolved to TfL, so there's even operators in England which won't be getting the GBR brand. That's in addition to the open access operators - Lumo, Eurostar, Grand Central, Hull Trains.

In fact around half of the GB passenger operators won't come under GBR.

I agree the naming of Great British Railways doesn't make sense given this context, but Westminster politicians decided they wanted that name.

Deepgreen said:
The Union flag incorporates English, Scottish and Welsh elements, such that no nation is excluded or sidelined, quite rightly. A storm in a teacup, methinks.

I think given there was an agreement about where the GBR branding would be placed in Scotland, it's fair to ask for it to be removed from places it's been incorrectly put up. But I agree it's a storm in a teacup really. A simple email to say, "Please could the GBR branding be removed from the low level station as it's only meant to be present at the high level?", would've sufficed. Network Rail have made clear that they didn't intend to put it there and a contractor has made a mistake, that's all it is. No need for the outrage.

Noddy · 2026-09-03T08:34:36+0100

trei2k said:
Sorry, as someone that lives in Glasgow and has done for the majority of my life, I can very much tell you it is.

The west of Scotland is still brightened by sectarian issues, whilst things have improved, the inclusion of the union flag colours would be best avoided.

For those unaware, the Union flag is heavily associated with protestant side of the sectarian divide.

The sociologist Steve Bruce has spent parts of his career studying sectarianism in Scotland. He has written extensively on it. Here is just one example from 2005:

TWENTY years ago, I published the first serious social-science study of sectarianism in Scotland, called "No Pope of Rome". Last year, with three colleagues, I returned to the subject. We devoted much effort to measuring every index of religious disadvantage, discrimination, difference and conflict in Scotland. We looked at economic position, educational qualifications, access to higher education, political power, voting patterns, legal rights, residential segregation and sectarian violence and came to the conclusion that the best parallel for the experience of the Irish Catholic community in Scotland was not the enduring conflict of Northern Ireland but the successful integration found in the United States.

I offer two items from a large array of data to support this optimistic view.

First, social class: disadvantage is not itself proof of discrimination, but the link works in reverse - if Catholics are victimised in schooling and employment, they should have a lower class profile. What the 2001 Census shows is that there is now little difference between those raised as Catholics and those raised as Protestants. The group with the worst class profile is that of those raised with no religion (and, no, we have no idea why either).

Second, integration: just over half of married Catholics under 35 have non-Catholic spouses. In Northern Ireland, only 6 per cent of marriages are mixed. In the US, inter-racial marriages are also about 6 per cent. Despite segregated schooling, Scots now choose partners with no regard for religion.

Yet, the perception is different. In a recent Glasgow survey, 53 per cent said they thought employment discrimination was common, but only 1 per cent said they had suffered any (and half of those were not Catholic).

One explanation for this paradox may be mistaken baseline expectations. One person said her firm discriminated against Catholics because only three out of ten people were Catholic. Because we talk about the Catholic Church and the Kirk, Catholic schools and state schools, and Rangers and Celtic as matching pairs, it is possible to suppose that half of Glaswegians are Catholic and, hence, only three Catholics in ten people needs explaining. Actually, three in ten is a slight over-representation, because Catholics make up only 25 per cent of lowlands Scots.

We see the same paradox with violence. Two-thirds of the Glasgow survey said sectarian violence was common or very common, but less than 1 per cent had suffered any. When those who had suffered various forms of abuse were asked the reasons, it turned out that most violence was domestic. Residential area was much more commonly cited than religion, as were gender and sexuality. So, again, we have a mismatch. People think something is widespread but somehow they have not experienced it.

This is what I mean by a social myth. How do we explain it? A large part of the answer is that opinion-leaders such as politicians and the mass media believe that sectarianism is a major problem and that belief distorts their perceptions.

I will cite just two examples. Since June 2003, it has been possible for a criminal offence to be "aggravated" by religious prejudice. A mugger can now be hit with a second charge if he calls his victim "a Proddie b******". Last November, the Crown Office and the Procurator Fiscal Service released their analysis of the first six months of the new system. The Daily Telegraph was typical in leading with "Catholics are twice as likely as Protestants to be the targets of sectarian abuse". What was not stressed in the reporting was that, in more than 90 per cent of cases, the original offence was breach of the peace, not murder, robbery or assault. More than a third of the victims were police officers, not civilians, and more than half the perpetrators were drunk. More than a third of cases were associated with football matches or Orange marches. And the sectarian abuse was verbal.

This is not Nazis wrecking Jewish shops: it is young drunks ranting at coppers and others who get in the way of their inalienable right to get drunk and disorderly.

What was striking about this episode was that the Crown Office (aided by uncritical reporting) created an entirely false impression of Catholics as victims. The perpetrators do not know the religion of their victims and nor do we. What we know is the content of the verbal abuse. It tells us about the identity of the abuser, not the abused. Two-thirds of the perpetrators expressed anti-Catholic sentiments; one-third expressed anti-Protestant sentiments. If the drunken hooligans of Glasgow divide two-thirds Protestant and one-third Catholic, that is about par for the area. Incivility is evenly distributed.

Second case: last November, the Sunday Mail reported the burning down of a Catholic chapel in Stornoway under the banner headline "Real toll of Old Firm mayhem". The police later announced that the fire was caused by an electrical fault and that no crime was suspected, but that fact did not get the banner-headline treatment. Thus are myths sustained.

• Steve Bruce is professor of sociology at Aberdeen University.

The Scotsman - Opinion - Comment - Beware myths that tarnish 'sectarian' Scots

TWENTY years ago, I published the first serious social-science study of sectarianism in Scotland, called "No Pope of Rome". Last year, with three colleagues, I returned to the subject. We devoted much effort to measuring every index of religious...

web.archive.org

Here is a link to the book he published on the subject. He has returned to the study more recently.

Sectarianism in Scotland by Steve Bruce | Open Library

Sectarianism in Scotland by Steve Bruce, Tony Glendinning, Iain Rosie, Michael Paterson, August 2004, Edinburgh University Press edition, Paperback in English

openlibrary.org

Falcon1200 · 2026-09-03T08:35:54+0100

Davester50 said:
40.5% of votes at the 2026 election for SNP/Green and 58.2% for parties that vote for the Union, by the way.

Djgr said:
...although that's not how a referendum works

Although at every single election the SNP make independence a central theme of their prospectus. If they then, even with the Greens added, win less than 50% of the votes, what does that indicate?

In any event, I doubt many, if any, passengers have the faintest idea that the Low Level platforms at Central, sharing station name and platform numbering with the High Level, are managed separately.

GusB · 2026-09-03T10:59:33+0100

I found the original story quite amusing at first. My first thought was "oops, silly mistake" and I believe that's all it was. I don't particularly think it's a big deal, to be honest, and I'm someone who sits on the independence side of the debate. I certainly didn't expect it to turn into the stairheid rammy that it has become.

Having said that, I can understand why some Scots are a bit more touchy about it. There are a lot of people who conflate "British" with "English", while completely forgetting the other constituent parts of the union. With the various by-elections we've had, I've seen plenty of interviews with Reform-type voters who say things like "England for the English", while mentioning the word "Britain" in the same sentence; that's irritating.

Davester50 said:
40.5% of votes at the 2026 election for SNP/Green and 58.2% for parties that vote for the Union, by the way.

You need to be a bit more specific. That's 40.5% of the constituency vote, so it's only part of the picture. Remember it's a proportional (ish) system and both parties combined ended up with 56.6% of the seats. In any case, if a party was expected to get more than 50% of the vote in order to have a mandate, no recent UK government would have had one!

Furthermore, you're making the assumption that all the people who voted for the SNP and Greens favour independence, and that those who voted for Unionist parties oppose it. This is not necessarily the case.

WAO · 2026-09-03T11:05:59+0100

While it is a minor issue, it shows how separatist (as distinct from delegated/home rule) propaganda is being foisted on the Scots by its local establishment. Why not campaign also to change the gauge at the border? -- the Russian gauge would do nicely.

I was warned off mentioning (in Scotland) that King Billy was supported by the Pope (anathema to both sides) as he practised religious toleration (in Holland) and opposed Louis 14's French expansionism. Pity no one told the Irish at the time.

However, National identity should not be a prime element of train livery. The old? sector liveries were best; IC denoted fast premium services to the British Capitals, NSE for the L&SE and Regional for the rest. A Scotrail derivative was/is logical and I think Regional should imitate it. Minor branding should then identify routes/DFTO's, including Metro areas. Branding (and ticketing) identifies a system and standard and should enable travel (and use of public transport in areas with which one is not familiar).

Yes, I know BA puts the flag on its aircraft but it is international.

WAO

olddriver · 2026-09-03T11:33:11+0100

GusB said:
Furthermore, you're making the assumption that all the people who voted for the SNP and Greens favour independence, and that those who voted for Unionist parties oppose it. This is not necessarily the case.

I was about to make this exact point but you beat me to it.

I support Scottish independence but voted Labour. My Dad supports the Union but voted SNP.

We both just happened to prefer the candidate from ‘the other side’ as a potential representative.

Edit: (I know this means we cancelled each other out in the figures quoted but you get my point.)

Port Road · 2026-09-03T12:08:45+0100

Falcon1200 said:
Although at every single election the SNP make independence a central theme of their prospectus. If they then, even with the Greens added, win less than 50% of the votes, what does that indicate?

In any event, I doubt many, if any, passengers have the faintest idea that the Low Level platforms at Central, sharing station name and platform numbering with the High Level, are managed separately.

Well, no they don't actually - which is why since Sturgeon & Swinney took over the SNP has lost around 40,000 members (including me).
The main reasons seem to be realization that the top tiers of the NuSNP are quite happy slurping Holyrood gravy; they are now a devolutionist party - the last thing they actually want is movement towards independence.
Reason 2 revolves around the disgraceful attempted frame-up of Alex Salmond.

cb a1 · 2026-09-03T12:42:13+0100

As far as I can tell from reading the story, no politicians of any kind were involved in this. It's got nothing to do with flags but with having work commissioned and carried out correctly.

Alison Irvine and Bill Reeve are civil servants. I wouldn't claim to be friends with either of them, but I have met them many times through work. Whilst they will have their own personal stance relating to which political party they vote for and their view on independence, like all the other 'senior' civil servants I have engaged with over the years, they do not discuss that at all.

If you've not already seen it, this clip for Yes Minister perfectly captures the role of a civil servant.

Yew · 2026-09-03T13:49:26+0100

Coleridge said:
It's insensitive, and indicates a dismissive attitude towards those parts of the UK.

How? The union flag by design represents all nations in said union. It is not the flag of England.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 14:04 ==

Port Road said:
"Scotland does very well as part of the union...." Oh? Please enlighten me. (I have tried very hard not to react so some of the "stuff" being posted so far....)
"The majority" that you claim to speak for -according to polls- actually want to leave the union, but for some reason your Prime Minister won't even discuss the matter.

There was a referendum, the result was clear. No dobut this democratic fervour for up-to-date representation will vanish as soon as the result you prefer happens, and then you will claim it is binding forever.

SargeNpton · 2026-09-03T14:20:54+0100

As an aside, I am reminded of a holiday a few years ago in Berwick on Tweed.

Travelling south on the A1 from Scotland, when you reach the border there are three flagpoles on the left. One carries the flag of Northumberland, the second has the George Cross for England and the third has the Union flag for the United Kingdom.

Travelling north there are also three flagpoles on the left. The first has the Saltire, the second has the Saltire and the third has the Saltire.

snookertam · 2026-09-03T14:24:55+0100

Deepgreen said:
Why won't it?

Great British Railways should mean exactly that unless or until Scotland gains independence. The nationalisation philosophy should embrace all British main line railways, or the integration currently lacking will not return properly.

The Union flag incorporates English, Scottish and Welsh elements, such that no nation is excluded or sidelined, quite rightly. A storm in a teacup, methinks.

Only it doesn’t. None of ScotRail, transport for Wales, Transport for London nor Merseyrail will be part of GBR.

Davester50 · 2026-09-03T14:26:59+0100

Falcon1200 said:
Although at every single election the SNP make independence a central theme of their prospectus. If they then, even with the Greens added, win less than 50% of the votes, what does that indicate?

In any event, I doubt many, if any, passengers have the faintest idea that the Low Level platforms at Central, sharing station name and platform numbering with the High Level, are managed separately.

Exactly.

GusB said:
You need to be a bit more specific. That's 40.5% of the constituency vote, so it's only part of the picture. Remember it's a proportional (ish) system and both parties combined ended up with 56.6% of the seats. In any case, if a party was expected to get more than 50% of the vote in order to have a mandate, no recent UK government would have had one!

Furthermore, you're making the assumption that all the people who voted for the SNP and Greens favour independence, and that those who voted for Unionist parties oppose it. This is not necessarily the case.

You need to put that to Swinney. He was the one that rejected popular vote against seats won, and was using the 2026 vote as a referendum.
Why did he do that? Because he knew he wouldn't win the popular vote.

JamieL said:
It is interesting to read the comments in the thread including the dismissal of this as any sort of issue. The fact is the Union flag is offensive to some in Scotland so why display it unnecessarily? Why provoke a proportion of the populace for no good reason? Many here refer to the flag as the Butcher's Apron and/or see it linked with the sectarian issues highlighted earlier. There is no need for it.

I'm both Scottish and British. Why should one of my countries flags be hidden for the sake of a few nutters with a massive chips on their shoulders?

snookertam · 2026-09-03T14:27:28+0100

Davester50 said:
The triumphalism about getting an apology for a contractor putting stickers on the wrong gates from someone who earns a six figure sum shows exactly what she is.

Only it actually shows GBR in a positive light that they acknowledged there was an error on their part.

I get why the error could happen, but operationally Glasgow Central high level and low level are actually distinct stations.

Davester50 · 2026-09-03T14:27:50+0100

snookertam said:
Only it doesn’t. None of ScotRail, transport for Wales, Transport for London nor Merseyrail will be part of GBR.

And yet Network Rail - Scotland is GBR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 14:29 ==

snookertam said:
Only it actually shows GBR in a positive light that they acknowledged there was an error on their part.

It does. And as I said, shows up Transport Scotland

snookertam said:
I get why the error could happen, but operationally Glasgow Central high level and low level are actually distinct stations.

To a sticker puter-uper?

snookertam · 2026-09-03T14:32:18+0100

gabrielhj07 said:
Because removing the distinct ScotRail branding would upset thin-skinned nationalists such as the lady making this complaint.

(And also ScotRail is doing quite well for itself without Westminster's help)

I’m not understanding the reference to nationalists. The saltire is the flag of Scotland, it belongs to everyone here regardless of political opinion (or ethnic, racial, religious or other backgrounds). People identify with it regardless of whether they support independence or the union. In fact, opinion polls consistently show that the majority of people in Scotland view themselves as Scottish before British in numbers that far outweigh support for independence.

Putting a Union Jack over a saltire will annoy far more people than those who support independence here. I think that’s a fundamental misunderstanding of Scotland by those south of the border.

I would also add, the most sensitive posts I’ve seen on here are by people from outside of Scotland claiming that we should all be part of GBR. They are accusing others of nationalism. Read into that what you will.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 14:33 ==

Davester50 said:
And yet Network Rail - Scotland is GBR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 14:29 ==

But Network Rail Scotland don’t operate Glasgow central low level.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 14:35 ==

Davester50 said:
To a sticker puter-uper?

Yes, it should be, if they’ve been given the correct instructions by those giving them the job.

Davester50 · 2026-09-03T15:00:51+0100

snookertam said:
Putting a Union Jack over a saltire will annoy far more people than those who support independence here. I think that’s a fundamental misunderstanding of Scotland by those south of the border.

The fleg is the fleg of the UK, which Scotland is part of. It's only the few that get chippy about it. Though luck on them.

snookertam said:
if

Exactly.

Djgr · 2026-09-03T15:02:05+0100

Falcon1200 said:
Although at every single election the SNP make independence a central theme of their prospectus. If they then, even with the Greens added, win less than 50% of the votes, what does that indicate?

Except that a proportion of Labour and Liberal voters will vote pro independence and so your logic is flaky

Noddy · 2026-09-03T15:19:31+0100

snookertam said:
Putting a Union Jack over a saltire

Did they?

JamesT · 2026-09-03T15:35:48+0100

Djgr said:
Except that a proportion of Labour and Liberal voters will vote pro independence and so your logic is flaky

So using votes for another purpose as a proxy for independence is unreliable. Better then to use the opinion polls. For which the average pro-independence percentage has been sub-50% since 2014 and the last referendum.

urbophile · 2026-09-03T16:13:28+0100

Yew said:
How? The union flag by design represents all nations in said union. It is not the flag of England.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 14:04 ==

But it is seen by many, nonetheless, as a symbol of English dominance. (And it doesn't represent all nations: Wales isn't included). I just happen to think that the Union Jack style branding (and the name) of GBR is a sop to the rabid English nationalists of the far right.

Union Jack-style Great British Railways branding at major Glasgow station angers Scottish government officials

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