mcexperts
Member
As per link, new franchise for GNW.
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Go Ahead win new TFGM franchise at Leigh / Bolton
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I know that West Yorkshire has mandated that small package services cannot be operated from main depots. Was that the case with GM (?) and it does read that they've Bolton area routes... into that main depot?As per link, new franchise for GNW.
47550
Member
Must admit I thought that was the case in Manchester too.
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Presumably the Diamond MMCs which currently operate the routes will transfer over ?
JasonL
Member
I can see services such as the 35, V1/V2/V4 transferring over from Wigan and Bolton depots to this new Leigh depot as well as local Leigh routes.
The wording is weird, but the press release doesn't say they'll use the existing depot in Bolton. It simply says
Serious question - what will be left at Diamond's Bolton depot? Are they suddenly going to have too much space?
So it's a depot in Bolton. True, it then goes on to talk about the new depot in Leigh, and doesn't say anything about a new depot in Bolton. But it doesn't say the existing depot will be used. It could be as simple as they haven't sorted out an additional Bolton base yet.
Serious question - what will be left at Diamond's Bolton depot? Are they suddenly going to have too much space?
WWH44L
Member
- Joined
- 7 Nov 2014
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- 157
This won’t happen as they are part of the current large contract. And also the V1/2 are run with electric vehicles now.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It's what prompted my question.
Having lost that much work, I can see Bolton being consolidated into Eccles.
Quite
The answer to that was that originally small by franchises couldn't be run from large depots. I don't know if that's changed but equally I can't imagine why they would change it as it would introduce all manner of complications. What if GNW placed a bid based on running a small franchise from Bolton and then lost Bolton depot for example? Even if that didn't happen, GNW would still be at a commercial advantage because it would have all the facilities that another small operator wouldn't have. I guess you could put some mitigation in place but it would make things complicated.
Leaving Bolton free for someone else to take over... There could well be a reason like that that GNW are being sketchy on this.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Thanks for that. I thought there was a rule on smaller franchises that they couldn't be run from a large depot because of that commercial advantage.
In the last 20 or so years, Goodwin Street has been Stagecoach, Lancashire United (Blazefield), Blue Bus, Arriva and Diamond NW... probably due a change. Think it's still owned by Roger Jarvis of Blue Bus?
They will only find space for a small depot in Leigh, so my guess is any depot will be solely for the ex-Diamond work in the Leigh/Atherton franchise and nothing else, if you start moving V1-V4 and 35 there you would cause issues at Bolton and Wigan with drivers, allocations and rosta's etc..., let alone the TfGM rules, What isn't clear about these Leigh/Atherton routes is wether the 126 and 132 are included in them as last time the 126 and 132 where in a seperate franchise called Wigan East, and as yet no Wigan work has been awarded, if they are part of the Leigh/Atherton franchise that will mean deckers being allocated to Leigh as the 132 is due to become a double-deck route, if not it will have a single deck allocation of entirely MMC E200's.
The Bolton depot of Diamond might not be dead quite yet either, as it depends on who might win future school routes in the West area franchise when they go up for retender, if they are not awarded to the current holders Stagecoach and Vision Bus. All that is left for sure otherwise is 4 routes in Wigan plus whatever Diamond operate in Bury.
The Bolton depot of Diamond might not be dead quite yet either, as it depends on who might win future school routes in the West area franchise when they go up for retender, if they are not awarded to the current holders Stagecoach and Vision Bus. All that is left for sure otherwise is 4 routes in Wigan plus whatever Diamond operate in Bury.
Unless I'm wrong I think most of the Leigh local services are operated from Bolton (Goodwin Street) Depot whereas 126 & 132s are operated out of Eccles Depot and I know that driver/vehicle changeovers for 126 & 132s are normally done at Trafford Centre.
Leyland Bus
Member
Didn't take long for this to decent in chaos did it? 
Bolton work will run out of Nelson St as small franchises cannot be run from large ones. A new depot in the Leigh area is being sort for work over that way. The V routes will not be transferring as they are large franchise routes ran from Weston St.
The E200s are due to be transferred across and will gain new fleetnumbers in due course.
The former Arriva depot is still owned by the Jarvis family, it's future is currently unknown.
Bolton work will run out of Nelson St as small franchises cannot be run from large ones. A new depot in the Leigh area is being sort for work over that way. The V routes will not be transferring as they are large franchise routes ran from Weston St.
The E200s are due to be transferred across and will gain new fleetnumbers in due course.
The former Arriva depot is still owned by the Jarvis family, it's future is currently unknown.
47550
Member
Could you please remind me what runs out of Nelson St at the moment as I thought they were large franchise routes.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Again, I wish I'd never asked the questionDidn't take long for this to decent in chaos did it?
Bolton work will run out of Nelson St as small franchises cannot be run from large ones. A new depot in the Leigh area is being sort for work over that way. The V routes will not be transferring as they are large franchise routes ran from Weston St.
The E200s are due to be transferred across and will gain new fleetnumbers in due course.
The former Arriva depot is still owned by the Jarvis family, it's future is currently unknown.
Thanks to those for confirming my suspicions about small franchises not being permissible from a large franchise depot, and thank you for confirming my belief about Goodwin Street's ownership.
I hadn't appreciated how close Nelson Street is to Weston Street depot; they back onto each other!
Leyland Bus
Member
They are right next to each other but we still have to trolley all the way round to get to itAgain, I wish I'd never asked the question
Thanks to those for confirming my suspicions about small franchises not being permissible from a large franchise depot, and thank you for confirming my belief about Goodwin Street's ownership.
I hadn't appreciated how close Nelson Street is to Weston Street depot; they back onto each other!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I can see that - so near but yet so farThey are right next to each other but we still have to trolley all the way round to get to it
mcexperts
Member
Genuine question for anyone who knows how these franchise conditions actually work.
If the spec says the services have to run from a separate, small depot, and what appears next door to the existing depot is a hardstanding with buses parked on it — while the servicing and repairs carry on where they always did (as confirmed in previous posts) — is that the condition being met, or the condition being interpreted?
Asking because from the outside the two look identical, and I assume somebody signs off on the difference.
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Adding to my own question.
The tender notice for these lots says they're suitable for small and medium firms. 28 buses for Bolton/Bury/Farnworth, 21 for Leigh/Atherton.
So I'd guess that's why they can't come out of a big depot — no small firm can match a big one that's already got everything on site.
Which brings it back to the same thing. Does a separate depot have to be a proper depot, or is a different address enough? They back onto each other, so it's a fair question.
If the spec says the services have to run from a separate, small depot, and what appears next door to the existing depot is a hardstanding with buses parked on it — while the servicing and repairs carry on where they always did (as confirmed in previous posts) — is that the condition being met, or the condition being interpreted?
Asking because from the outside the two look identical, and I assume somebody signs off on the difference.
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Adding to my own question.
The tender notice for these lots says they're suitable for small and medium firms. 28 buses for Bolton/Bury/Farnworth, 21 for Leigh/Atherton.
So I'd guess that's why they can't come out of a big depot — no small firm can match a big one that's already got everything on site.
Which brings it back to the same thing. Does a separate depot have to be a proper depot, or is a different address enough? They back onto each other, so it's a fair question.
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Leyland Bus
Member
It states the buses are run from a depot that isn't owned/run by TfGM.
If they are parked next door, maintained next door, fuelled next door etc etc then they are "next door"... If an operator knocked down a fence, concreted a patch of land and used the TfGM facilities then that is obviously a breech...
I assume you mean the franchise types look the same "from the outside" or are you referring to the two Bolton Garages looking the same?
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Right so it is about the two Bolton Depots. Whilst they are "next to each other" there is a socking great fence between them and actually a height differnence in land. I really don't understand what it is you are grasping at?
mcexperts
Member
Separate depot and "trolley all the way round"They are right next to each other but we still have to trolley all the way round to get to it
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This is back gate to Weston Street, looks no big difference in land height
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Leyland Bus
Member
Trolley round - "Go all the way round".Separate depot and "trolley all the way round"
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This is back gate to Weston Street, looks no big difference in land height
Height difference, there is literally a ramp to get in the place...
mcexperts
Member
But for "trolley round" if it's separate depot
Leyland Bus
Member
I work at Weston St and have reason at times to go to Nelson St. My post was meant that despite the two being next to each other, we still have to "go all the way around" to get to each other, i.e there is no access between the two...
mcexperts
Member
But some buses from Nelson "visit" Weston.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I'd be inclined to believe @Leyland Bus given he works there.Separate depot and "trolley all the way round"
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This is back gate to Weston Street, looks no big difference in land height
There's a public road and whilst the site is adjacent, there is a height differential.
Whilst the odd bus may visit, I'd suggest that as long as there are separate maintenance and office facilities, it is almost impossible to fully police
Leyland Bus
Member
Needless to say, we do have permission for Nelson St buses to be fuelled at Weston St etc as it takes along time to setup fuelling facilities.