Why doesn't Ripon have a train line towards Harrogate or York?

Mr. SW said:

Looking at that timetable one begins to wonder about what exactly BR (and presumably the [real] LNER and NER) were exactly trying to do. I suspect that this sort of thing was rather more common than people would like to think, even then.

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In that era, regional type trains ran about every 2 hours, and small local stations only served in the morning and early evening [often carrying mostly railway staff going to and from work]. With lots of cross over and exceptions. There wasn't much commuting as we know it now - people couldn't afford the fares. If you lived in Ripon and got a job in Leeds (unless it paid really well, or was on the railway), you moved there. The regional trains carried not many and the locals almost nothing. The bulk of the local trade had long gone to buses and was moving towards private transport already by 1958. They were just trying to achieve the minimum amount of service that could be got away with, with a view to inevitable closure.

There was quite a lot of closures, and service reductions in the 1930s. Gaps in services were needed for freight operations and further cuts made in wartime . Then coal shortages post war. Empty trains cut from timetables, giving some pretty thin and strange (for today) timetables.

yorksrob said:

Boris Johnson is much disliked on this forum, but whatever his faults, I have always applauded his reversing Beeching policy.

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I mean it would have been better if his words had matched his actions but that was hardly BoJo's strong suit.

skyhigh said:

Would the money for reopening Ripon not be better spent on redoubling the single sections between Knaresborough and York, modernising the signalling and potentially wiring?

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Probably except there is no money for reopening to Ripon.

Bald Rick said:

And subsequently closed.

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Closed for refurbishment. It wouldn't have done so without the Chiltern line proposal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 17:33 ==

Djgr said:

I mean it would have been better if his words had matched his actions but that was hardly BoJo's strong suit.

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I'm afraid the woeful record on English reopenings during most of the privatisation period is the real lack of action.

Djgr said:

I mean it would have been better if his words had matched his actions but that was hardly BoJo's strong suit.

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The text book for political management was beautifully enacted in that wonderful series, Yes Prime Minister. It's still available to view, i think BBC 4.

Throw the pressure groups a few chunks of meat by way of feasibilty studies costing millions that will sell well in local newspapers, in special interest magazines, on social media and keeps the backbenchers off the PMs back. That will save the billions we haven't got over the next couple of decades. Schools, hospitals, prisons, roads, railways, defence, you name it, all pushed forward for the next incumbents to not deal with! BoJo was just a more notable user of the technique. They all do it.

It's amazing that so much has actually happened.

quantinghome said:

Indeed - but Evergreen 3 transformed it by connecting it to the Chiltern line. This is a prime example of why the platonic ideal of 'reopening a closed railway' exists more in the imagination than reality. While the length of track reopened to passenger traffic by Evergreen 3 was minimal, it joined bits of network together to produce an important new connection. There are other cases which could be the subject of debate over definition - did the introduction of the service from Stratford up the Lea Valley lines constitute a reopening, for example?


Still a reopening on the main line railway no matter who sponsored it. I left out the numerous reopenings achieved by tram / metro systems.


We could also add East West Rail which was funded and its design well advanced before the Reversing Beeching scheme, although construction work didn't begin until 2020 thanks to numerous false starts. Camp Hill Line could be another depending on how we define a reopening.

There's an interesting debate to be had over what constitutes a reopening. Notwithstanding that, Reversing Beeching didn't achieve anything more that had been achieved in previous decades. The two schemes that did open would probably have opened anyway, and more would have been achieved with a better focussed reopening programme rather than the unorganised free-for-all we got.

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In terms of Evergreen 3, it would have been a lot harder to undertake without a working railway in place.

East West rail - well funding was confirmed in 2012, so a bit earlier than I'd thought, but still a big gap with not a lot happening before then.

It would have been nice to have had a focused reopening programme I agree, but since no one was offering one, I'd take the one available.

RT4038 said:

In that era, regional type trains ran about every 2 hours, and small local stations only served in the morning and early evening [often carrying mostly railway staff going to and from work]. With lots of cross over and exceptions. There wasn't much commuting as we know it now - people couldn't afford the fares. If you lived in Ripon and got a job in Leeds (unless it paid really well, or was on the railway), you moved there. The regional trains carried not many and the locals almost nothing. The bulk of the local trade had long gone to buses and was moving towards private transport already by 1958. They were just trying to achieve the minimum amount of service that could be got away with, with a view to inevitable closure.

There was quite a lot of closures, and service reductions in the 1930s. Gaps in services were needed for freight operations and further cuts made in wartime . Then coal shortages post war. Empty trains cut from timetables, giving some pretty thin and strange (for today) timetables.

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There's always the strong suspicion that BR and its predecessors held its customer base (both passenger and freight) in contempt. If they wanted to do something about it, then they would have, but they probably already knew way back that the line through Ripon was dead. The decision to close was probably made many years before, typed up by Miss Tibbs on foolscap with two carbons and put in a manila folder to be put in turn into a filing cabinet. It would then be looked at from time to time until Beeching and Castle provided the necessary excuses to deal with the problem.

deltic08 said:

Are any of you reading my posts? The Ripon line was making £13,000 annual profit in 1962 when Beeching looked at the line and should not have been closed. The Queen of Scots Pullman was routed through Ripon non stop to Harrogate and Leeds Central station where it reversed before continuing to KX. If it was routed via York it could not have called at Leeds as there was no connection between City station and the London line via Copley Hill at that time. Two other long distance passenger trains from Leeds to the northeast passed Ripon non stop. They were routed this way as York was at capacity so it was for operational convenience. These trains were of no use to Ripon rail users but operating costs were added to the line in the case for closing it yet it still made an overall profit. The same happened with two freight trains routed this way. Had they been routed via York then the Ripon line would have made even profit.

[…]


You are both over egging the anti pudding by nit picking about everything you can think of.

For starters, the proposed station site is only 8 minutes walk from the market square. Then there is a City bus service which could easily divert to the station. 40% of Ripon residents live within 20 minutes walk of the station site.

[…]

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I am getting less than convinced by your various assertions. The Reshaping Report makes clear that much of the evidence base was from 1961. It is well established that the passenger counts ( for every other station except Ripon apparently) were undertaken over a week in April 1961 before Dr B had fully taken up his role.

The Reshaping Report makes clear that wage cost rose significantly in 1962 because of the 9% Guillebaud Review. On top of that the working week was reduced by 4 hours, which made a particularly large impact on ‘continuous cover’ roles like signalling and crossing keepers.

If the alleged ‘profit’ had somehow survived until the late 1960s why would a new “Halt to major rail closures” administration swing the axe at that point?

Mr. SW said:

There's always the strong suspicion that BR and its predecessors held its customer base (both passenger and freight) in contempt. If they wanted to do something about it, then they would have, but they probably already knew way back that the line through Ripon was dead. The decision to close was probably made many years before, typed up by Miss Tibbs on foolscap with two carbons and put in a manila folder to be put in turn into a filing cabinet. It would then be looked at from time to time until Beeching and Castle provided the necessary excuses to deal with the problem.

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You have to bear in mind that all the original railway builders were hoping to make profits and most did. By 1900 increasing numbers were struggling and some has failed. That was a serious problem after WW1 when the 1923 groupings were seen as the answer, but losses were not eliminated. Some lines were closed and/or truncated before WW2. That period of intensive operation with minmal investment meant that nationalised British Railways was facing an uphill battle from the start.

But profit was still expected and that was the back drop to the Modernisation plans of the 1950s and Beechings 1960s efforts. Gradually the penny was dropping that the full built railway network was totally unsustainable, possibly almost all of it. Subsidies in one form or another were inevitable if most of it was to continue. With passenger and freight volumes tumbling year after year there was a momentum of doom with very few bright spots.

We now know that some of the actions being taken were starting to bear fruit. Passenger numbers started recovering from about 1985. We didn't know that was a sustained new trend and not an isolated blip until after 1990. By that time the cutbacks had mostly happened. It was too early for restorations.

Fast forward to the 2020s and we're in a different world. Stockton & Darlington 1825. By 1850 Queen Victoria was taking a train from Edinburgh to London over the Royal Border and High Level Bridges. Many lines were being constructed across the land in timescales we find incredible. Trouble is they're now 100 - 200 years old and require very expensive maintenance. Restoring, protecting, rejuvenating them is going to require increasingly large sums withot adding more lines with minmal extra revenue.

Now if Ripon were earmaked to be the nucleus of a new town trebling the population by 2040 maybe there'd be a stronger case...

yorksrob said:

I'm afraid the woeful record on English reopenings during most of the privatisation period is the real lack of action.

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Please, not this again.

Leaving aside that a ‘reopening’ can be a new station as much as a new line, from the start of the privatisation period (1995) we had new lines opened that enabled new connections and services :

Birmingham Snow Hill to Smethwick / Langley Green
Hednesford to Rugeley Town
Rugeley Town to Rugeley TV
Watford / Wembley to West London Line
Mansfield to Worksop
Halifax to Huddersfield via Greetland and Bradley
Eastleigh to Romsey
Aylesbury to Aylesbury Vale Parkway
Kettering to Corby
Todmorden to Burnley
Oxford to Princes Risborough
Shoreditch to Dalston
Surrey Quays to Peckham
Finsbury Park to St Pancras
Barking to Barking Riverside
York - Castleford - Wakefield K

I’m sure there’s others I can’t remember off the top of my head.

That‘s before we get to Okehampton and Ashington, both of which were already proceeding before ‘Restoring Your Railways’ was coined, and the two in Bristol being built now which were and are independent of the RYR programme.

And that excludes numerous lines opened on light rail systems that used to be heavy rail, and of course HS1, Crossrail, EWR Bicester - Bletchley (coming soon!) etc.

Dr Hoo said:

I am getting less than convinced by your various assertions. The Reshaping Report makes clear that much of the evidence base was from 1961. It is well established that the passenger counts ( for every other station except Ripon apparently) were undertaken over a week in April 1961 before Dr B had fully taken up his role.

The Reshaping Report makes clear that wage cost rose significantly in 1962 because of the 9% Guillebaud Review. On top of that the working week was reduced by 4 hours, which made a particularly large impact on ‘continuous cover’ roles like signalling and crossing keepers.

If the alleged ‘profit’ had somehow survived until the late 1960s why would a new “Halt to major rail closures” administration swing the axe at that point?

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I suspect there is a bit of wishful thinking going on here. In the winter of 1962/3 the train service consisted of 5 stopping (although most of the intermediate stations up to Harrogate had already been closed) DMU trains running from Darlington to Leeds and 2 running from Northallerton to Leeds. There were 2 long distance trains from Newcastle, one to Manchester and one to Liverpool which stopped at Ripon, plus the Queen of Scots Pullman from Glasgow to King's Cross, which didn't. Same in the reverse direction, although one of the stopping DMUs went to West Hartlepool (via Yarm) rather than Darlington, and both expresses that stopped at Ripon came from Liverpool.. There was also at 3h57am Leeds-Ripon arr 5h7am, presumably Newspaper Train. On Sundays, one round trip Leeds-Northallerton on a Sunday Morning (all the 'boxes open for that), a DMU at 6pm from Ripon to Northallerton arr 6h35pm, sit there until 9h23pm back to Leeds and then an 11h15pm back through to Northallerton. Also a 9h20pm Leeds-Ripon. These evening trains I guess would be for returning Forces, also a declining market following abolition of National Service.

I cannot imagine how the 7 DMU trips could possibly have been taking sufficient revenue to be paying their fair share of movement and operations/maintenance costs of the line [they wouldn't anywhere else], unless there really were huge quantities of passengers (completely disappeared now) travelling from Harrogate and Ripon to Darlington and West Hartlepool. I lived in Darlington in the 1980s, and Ripon and Harrogate were just not places that people sought to go to in any quantity, nor were people flocking from those places to Darlington. Sure there may well have been some commuters [nothing like the numbers now] and passengers from Ripon to Leeds (competed with by a much more frequent and probably cheaper, splendid omnibus service of the West Yorkshire Road Car and United Automobile Companies]. So where so much money was coming from to pay for the drivers and guards, the signalmen and level crossing keepers, the permanent way workers, track renewals, equipment maintainers, financing costs of the railcars etc etc in order to make this vast profit I have no idea? Some selective costing and revenue attribution I suspect.

I daresay there was some freight traffic via the line, from Teesside and avoiding the congestion of York, but freight traffic volume on the railway was collapsing in the 60s and (mentioned recently in this forum) the full quad tracking of the Northallerton-York line was completed in 1968. Passenger trains between Northallerton and York, and York and Leeds (1 or 2 per hour)were nothing like as frequent as they are now, and the lines could easily accommodate the three per day extra express trains, as could the remaining freight traffic. Passenger traffic from the North East to Leeds and further west, and vice versa would be just as happy to go via York, with a faster journey to boot.

Skipton to Colne is more likely that this. Admittedly it is more sensible than a barking idea a former Harrogate Council leader had of terminating trains from Leeds at Starbeck so allowing the level crossing to closed. A narrow gauge railway running from the other side of the level crossing to the northern end of Knaresborough viaduct and then the train to York commencing at Knaresborough.

The completion for the York-Northallerton quadrupling was in 1958 under the Modernisation Plan. (Skelton Bridge excepted.) This was associated with the focus on Healey Mills as the main West Yorkshire marshalling yard. So anything other that local freight had no long term future via Ripon. Local coal traffic was to go to Coal Concentration Depots but these were unsustainable in areas close to collieries anyway.
The Leeds Central and City rationalisation greatly simplified trunk routeing patterns.
I accept that MOD traffic for Melmerby had been treated on its specific merits.

Part 2 of Beeching's report was maps, see; https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech001b.pdf

Digging into the past I've found it interesting to see consideration of future rail needs as seen in the second 'Beeching Report' concentrating on stimulating traffic on the core routes rather than branch line closures published in February 1965 "The Development of the Major Railway Trunk Routes." Statistics for 1964 are compared with forecasts for 1984. See; https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech002.pdf

Much didn't happen. As a native of Newcastle I find the volumes of coal going to London area power stations by sea fascinating. They confirm my memories of all the coal trains heading for the ports and then the coal being loaded onto many colliers for their trips down the coast. A different world.

I'm afraid the line through Ripon didn't have a future back then or now.

Oxfordblues said:

The line closed because it was deemed to be "unremunerative", whatever that means. Since there are no toll booths on the A61 to pay for its maintenance and policing that must also be unremunerative. Closure was enacted by Labour transport minister Barbara Castle who during her tenure ruthlessly wiped-out 2,050 miles of railways, many of which would today be seen as essential.

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Bishops said:

If we are putting together a case to open up to Ripon can we get the line back open between bishop and Durham again? most of the line hasn't been built on apart from the pesky road across the viaduct but we have a bigger population than Ripon and we are on track to get 1 million visitors there next year due to Kynren expanding, so by the previous arguments for opening a railway are we not in a better position for the investment than Ripon

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I have to respond again because people are not reading my previous posts meaning I have to correct incorrect assumptions.

Beeching in his wisdom or ignorance, only took the booking office takings at Ripon for the whole line. According to him the ilne was losing £5,000 annually, £150,000 at to-days prices.. It was a brutal decision considering passengers from other stations were using the line on through services and paying elsewhere for the privilege, especially from Harrogate northwards.(In 1960, ratio of passengers travelling North/South from Harrogate before the Ripon line closed was 2:3. In 2015, after the Ripon line closed when passengers had to travel via and change at York, was 1:6.)

What was not in Beechings calculations anywhere for Ripon was army revenue of £18,000 annually from the 2 army camps at Ripon. This money was paid direct from the MOD to HQ in London and did not show in the Ripon booking office takings. The line was making a profit of £13,000 annually.(£385,000) instead. This did not include the revenue from the Ordnance Depot freight at Melmerby that closed in 1969 when the Starbeck-Melmerby line closed completely.

The latest tourist figure for Ripon pre covid is 1.3 million. We are ahead of Bishops figure as we have a Cathedral, Racecourse, Fountains Abbey World Heritage site, Newby Hall park and Lightwater Valley amusement park. 8% or 86,000 would come by rail if there was one. This would increase the footfall at Ripon station to 1.1 million annually when the survey was done in 2004. The latest rail use for Skipton is 1.3 million. A similar sized town to Ripon but with a frequent electric service to Bradford and Leeds.

Oxfordblues said:

The line closed because it was deemed to be "unremunerative", whatever that means. Since there are no toll booths on the A61 to pay for its maintenance and policing that must also be unremunerative. Closure was enacted by Labour transport minister Barbara Castle who during her tenure ruthlessly wiped-out 2,050 miles of railways, many of which would today be seen as essential.

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Please read what I have just written.

Barbara Castle was still discussing with local MPs a plan to rationalise and reduce signalling the line to reduce operating costs when BR started demolishing the line especially over and under bridges.

skyhigh said:

Would the money for reopening Ripon not be better spent on redoubling the single sections between Knaresborough and York, modernising the signalling and potentially wiring?

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No, £9.4 million has just been spent to introduce tokenless block on the Knaresborough-York line to enable 2tph. It is due to be resignalled and controlled from York ROC in 2029 but I am sure this has slipped since tokenless block was introduced.

30907 said:

Could you explain what additional operating costs would be incurred by 3 all-year-round services on top of the early 60s 8-9tpd. Were any signalboxes graded higher as a result? Was the maintenance regime any different?

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We haven't found any figures for what you asked but maintenance would be less with less trains using the line but the rest of line costs would be the same. Cwr was slowly being introduced and the long combined metal viaduct over the River Ure and A61 at the platform ends at Ripon station had been strengthened in 1958 at great expense. In hindsight this was a great waste of money if it was known the line was closing..
.

Killingworth said:

Probably except there is no money for reopening to Ripon.

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You are probably right but Ripon is in the Leeds City Region and is a commuter town/city for Harrogate, York and Leeds. Many travel to Teesside, and a few commute to Sheffield, Wakefield, Huddersfield, Halifax, Manchester and one travels daily to Liverpool. We will not give up now

SCH117X said:

Skipton to Colne is more likely that this. Admittedly it is more sensible than a barking idea a former Harrogate Council leader had of terminating trains from Leeds at Starbeck so allowing the level crossing to closed. A narrow gauge railway running from the other side of the level crossing to the northern end of Knaresborough viaduct and then the train to York commencing at Knaresborough.

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Yes it was a typical crazy idea from a Councillor who didn't use the railway

Killingworth said:

I'm afraid the line through Ripon didn't have a future back then or now.

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I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree unless you have figures that I do not have.

deltic08 said:

The line was proposed for closure by Beeching through incompetance. He only took the booking office takings at Ripon on a mid weekday in February. This showed the line was losing £13,000 per annum. What he didn't realise or ignored on purpose was that the Army traffic from 2 barracks in Ripon amounted to £18,000 per annum from troop trains, army equipment brough in by the daily pickup goods and thousands of rail warrants used by the personnel.

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These are interesting figures but more details are surely needed - For example, of the £18,000 from army traffic a fair amount (majority?) must have been for rail usage elsewhere than the Ripon line? And even in 1961 did pick-up goods trains cover their costs?

deltic08 said:

Lightwater Valley amusement park

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No offence but people are going there by car/coach very very few people would be going by train and then bus to it - especially with kids in tow.


also the little wink at the end meant i wasnt being too serious with opening Bishop to Durham

deltic08 said:

What was not in Beechings calculations anywhere for Ripon was army revenue of £18,000 annually from the 2 army camps at Ripon. This money was paid direct from the MOD to HQ in London and did not show in the Ripon booking office takings. The line was making a profit of £13,000 annually.(£385,000) instead. This did not include the revenue from the Ordnance Depot freight at Melmerby that closed in 1969 when the Starbeck-Melmerby line closed completely..

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The army was a very big user of the railway until the dying days of Empire as Britain withdrew from bases across the globe. In the 1940-60s period there'd be masses of khaki uniforms seen on stations and trains. Army vehicles came and went from the heart of Catterick Camp and Redmire. Back then Darlington was also a busy interchange station for soldiers based at Barnard Castle. (After the actions of the IRA travelling in uniform was banned so it's no longer possible to recognise military travellers.)

I'd assume that revenue for trains to Richmond (and previously Catteick Camp) would have been paid by the MOD in the same way as for Ripon. Since the 1960s Catterick Garrison has grown very substantially. Maybe those numbers may make a case for reopening the line from Darlington? A feasibility study perhaps?

No, I'm not being serious. I spent 3 years at Catterick Camp as a civilian in the 70s. Private cars ruled then and must do so even more today. I arrived in Richmond just after that line closed. The MOD had a fleet of their own coaches (and trucks) to take large numbers of men around the country, including to Darlington station. Arriva buses offer a decent half hourly X26/X27 service for families during most of the day.

Nostalgia is fine, but our selective memories need to take account of the many things that have changed in society over time.

deltic08 said:

What was not in Beechings calculations anywhere for Ripon was army revenue of £18,000 annually from the 2 army camps at Ripon. This money was paid direct from the MOD to HQ in London and did not show in the Ripon booking office takings. The line was making a profit of £13,000 annually.(£385,000) instead. This did not include the revenue from the Ordnance Depot freight at Melmerby that closed in 1969 when the Starbeck-Melmerby line closed completely.

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Comments like this completely undermine my confidence in the other arguments. The line was making a profit if you count the income from the large customers that were a) handled centrally and b) have now closed down. I know advocates are supposed to use the rule of best evidence, but this is simply misdirection because it loads in revenue that could never be part of a modern day business case.

That's a pity, because I think there is a reasonable case for improving links to Ripon, and that this would be better done by rail than by upgrading the A61.

I had relatives in the Ripon area, and arrived by train just before it closed travelling up from London as a 7 yo with my parents. Memories are hazy but I think we changed in Leeds. The next year it had closed and we were picked up in Harrogate. I then lived in the area during the 80s and 90s. Everyone said the railway "Shouldn't have closed" but how many of those would have actually used it had it still been operational I dont know, but probably not enough to make it pay.

My own view is the only way to make a case for reopening would be to continue to Northallerton, to provide an alternative route north. As others have said if major works are needed between York and Northallerton then the job stops currently.

The current railway would rather pack everyone on buses and make any journey involving engineering work closures total misery. I understand you cant cover every eventuallity but the York Northallerton link looks like a weak spot where an alternative route might be advisable.

Maybe send one TPE per hour to the NE that way from Leeds, calling at Harrogate Ripon and Northallerton in addition to a local service

The reality, with quite a bit of the track bed having been built on, difficult geology in the area of Ripon station (and possibly other sections), and the way major projects are now run which increases costs it will never happen. Ripon has a population of under 20,000, even with the hinterland I doubt this increases beyond 30,000. A lot of the attractions are not within easy reach of any likely station (Studley Royal and Fountains Abbey, Lightwater Valley, Newby Hall and Gardens).

As with a lot of the less defendable Beeching closures (as opposed to the basket cases) had it survived it would probably been singled, and possibly cut back beyond Ripon. but would proably have enjoyed something of a revival as rail usage has increase since the 80s.

The "should it have closed in the first place?" argument is a waste of electrons. Right or wrong, it did.

The question is whether there is a case to put it (or something similar) back.

Zomboid said:

The "should it have closed in the first place?" argument is a waste of electrons. Right or wrong, it did.

The question is whether there is a case to put it (or something similar) back.

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And what so many people get wrong is to conflate "Should it have been kept open?/If it was still open now, would we keep it running?" with "Should we rebuild it now?", when a yes to the first one doesn't in any way guarantee a yes to the second one.

mike57 said:

My own view is the only way to make a case for reopening would be to continue to Northallerton, to provide an alternative route north. As others have said if major works are needed between York and Northallerton then the job stops currently.

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Which results in no case. A diversionary route does not a business case make.

The route between York and Northallerton is certainly one of the better areas of the ECML in terms of resillience, and would be a lot more if headspands were replaced with portals.

I dont see why TPE would want to divert any services via Ripon and then have to arrive into Leeds the wrong way. It would also be slower than via York which also is a much bigger ridership draw.

Whether or not the route should have shut is as said a moot point.

It did.

And there is absolutely zero prospect or reasoning for it being rebuilt, that would be the best part of a billion pounds that would be much better spent on infrastucture maintenance and improvement to existing earthworks around the country.

Based on other reopenings, a simple single track branch from Harrogate terminating at Ripon would seem the most likely. I wonder if the Leeds-Harrogate- York service could split at Harrogate? It could be worth looking at whether a couple of Class 398 tram trains would allow cheaper railway construction, including level crossings and even sharing a road if nessecary.

yoyothehobo said:

Which results in no case. A diversionary route does not a business case make.

The route between York and Northallerton is certainly one of the better areas of the ECML in terms of resillience, and would be a lot more if headspands were replaced with portals.

I dont see why TPE would want to divert any services via Ripon and then have to arrive into Leeds the wrong way. It would also be slower than via York which also is a much bigger ridership draw.

Whether or not the route should have shut is as said a moot point.

It did.

And there is absolutely zero prospect or reasoning for it being rebuilt, that would be the best part of a billion pounds that would be much better spent on infrastucture maintenance and improvement to existing earthworks around the country.

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I agree with the general conclusion. However, at a detail level, I can see why there may be advantages on what is now a multiple unit railway of not having to use the eastern exit from Leeds for all services, and instead having some traffic between Leeds and the NE take the Harrogate route.

The Pelican said:

Based on other reopenings, a simple single track branch from Harrogate terminating at Ripon would seem the most likely. I wonder if the Leeds-Harrogate- York service could split at Harrogate? It could be worth looking at whether a couple of Class 398 tram trains would allow cheaper railway construction, including level crossings and even sharing a road if nessecary.

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Terminating *near* Ripon. Where would you stable and maintain the couple of class 398s, given that they're based in Wales? It wouldn't be cheaper to construct, unless it was a tramway. In which it would be run with a tram, not a class 398. With the nearest tram maintenance facility being in Sheffield.

35B said:

I agree with the general conclusion. However, at a detail level, I can see why there may be advantages on what is now a multiple unit railway of not having to use the eastern exit from Leeds for all services, and instead having some traffic between Leeds and the NE take the Harrogate route.

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Except that the western end is just as busy.

Best you'd get for a quick solution is a Harrogate-Ripon(ish) shuttle. If it can't run, you wouldn't even get a replacement bus, thanks to the 36.

deltic08 said:

There is no kink on the ground. The houses have not been built of the former trackbed. I agree they are very close. It is not the end of the world if they have to be demolished. The Mottram bypass recently demolished more than 12 houses. Just because it is a road.

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Moving the goalpost I see. You would have had more credibility if you acknowledged those houses in the first place.

35B said:

I agree with the general conclusion. However, at a detail level, I can see why there may be advantages on what is now a multiple unit railway of not having to use the eastern exit from Leeds for all services, and instead having some traffic between Leeds and the NE take the Harrogate route.

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A diverted Leeds - Newcastle via Ripon would be overtaken by services via York, probably to the tune of 30 minutes, rendering such a service completely useless for through journeys.

Plus having a reversal between the north and south sides of Leeds station is capacity destructive. Yes LNER do it currently every other hour, but the station layout cannot afford any more such moves.

NCT said:

diverted Leeds - Newcastle via Ripon would be overtaken by services via York, probably to the tune of 30 minutes, rendering such a service completely useless for through journeys

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If the line existed the service would probably be an hourly Leeds to Middleborough, calling at a couple of stations between Leeds & Harrogate, then Ripon, Northallerton, and onwards.

The issue is that it'd be faster from Leeds to all those places after Northallerton via York, so there would only really be local traffic. And everywhere other than Ripon already has trains.

I think the case for a line to Ripon would have been rather stronger off if the somewhat... radical(?) scheme for D-Trains and bottom contact third rail on the Harrogate line had happened.

The traffic growth on the Harrogate line might have made an extension to Ripon seem more realistic, especially as it would be a single person operation extension.

But it didn't and can't now!

deltic08 said:

The trackbed is still there at Littlethorpe but grassed over..

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Err, where exactly?