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Why doesn't Ripon have a train line towards Harrogate or York?

Zomboid

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These debates always get bogged down by the old formation. If there's something available (eg the viaduct near Harrogate) then great, but since the land has been sold anyway and the earthworks won't meet modern standards so any "rebuild" would be a new build. The question is really whether there is any route which could sensibly be built.

For a town the size of Ripon (and where every other big-enough-for-a-station settlement that would be served already has trains), the answer to that question is "No".
 
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yorksrob

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"Why didn't people simply accept compromise" asks someone who seems to have a slightly hard-line attitude to preserving every single inch of track, and will not accept any network rationalisation (e.g. Barton on Humber, decades after the Humber Bridge was built and the ferries stopped)

If you can't accept a single cut to today's operations then fair enough but maybe don't criticise those in the past for their inflexibility?

Well, it's nice to be recognised as someone who believes in compromise where necessary.

By the way, the Humber ferry connected from New Holland pier, not Barton - whose purpose was always to serve Barton upon Humber town, therefore the presence or otherwise of the ferry has no bearing on the need to retain that line.
 

YorksLad12

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No. You are not reading my contributions. You may live in York but obviously have not visited the area. There is nothing to prevent a railway being reinstated between Ripon and Harrogate. The trackbed is totally clear for at least a single track and double track where a dynamic loop is required. All metal bridges were taken down in 1970 for scrap but all masonry bridges are still intact. According to Arup, they just need Buddlia removing and grouting.
Following the former line from Harrogate to the outskirts of Ripon (as far as the Ripon By-Pass) using Rail Map online shows that the former track has been built over in parts; sometime just the one building/house, sometimes several.

You're forgetting as well that any build on the former or a new alignment will require much more space than the line itself - former station buildings now used as private dwellings would be in that buffer zone. Which pushes the cost up. Definitely not a no-brainer, to refer to a different thread.
 

Killingworth

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For context British Railway's 1955 Modernisation Plan had not started to reduce annual losses, worse, they were increasing enormously. The railway seemed to be locked in a doom loop for both passengers and freight. Richard Beeching was appointed Chair in June 1961 and his team produced the report "The Reshaping of British Railways" with Part 1 published on 27th March 1963.

It was comprehensive and clearly had to be based on the declining situation existing at that time, a period when most statistics were looking dire. It could take little heed of unknown changes in Britain over the next 60 years. The future looked to be road based! If you haven't read it I suggest you do, see; https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech001a.pdf

Looking back he got a lot right. There wasn't much time for detailed considerations. Lines were already closing before the report. Rail's core freight generator, coal, was in truly terminal decline - although not fully realised at that time.

Of course there were bound to be errors, especially looking back with the benefits of hindsight. The Ashington area I remember very well from that time - lots of coal. Most freight lines had to remain open. The passenger services at that time were very infrequent and didn't feed into Newcastle Central - no platform space. Manors had 9 platforms but isn't in the heart of the city. It was right to cease passenger services running as they were back then. At that time any suggestions of expansion would have been laughed out. The world changed over the next 50 years. Today's services run half hourly into the Central on upgraded extant freight tracks. They serve a totally different market, a new passenger railway overlaying parts of that old freight base. They couldn't have happened back then with all the slow coal trains still operating.

Ripon? See below for an extract from the summer 1958 timetable (apologies for reproduction, it's getting frail). That's about the period Beeching's research team would have been considering for costs and benefits.

If anyone thinks timetables in 2026 are complicated try working round ones like this. My father loved to do that and bought them every 6 months. See all the Monday - Fridays, Saturdays only, Fridays only, change at Northallerton type foot notes. Most folk went to their local booking office and had their journeys planned for them*.

South East Northumberland has changed immensely since 1958. There are many more potential customers and they are using the trains. It still cost, and will continue to cost the various arms of government enormous amounts of subsidies to keep it going.

Rebuilding to Ripon wouldn't be to replicate the services of 1958. That era has gone. Where would the numbers come from in the 2030s and for what level of services? Change Harrogate services to York to hourly and make it hourly from Leeds to Ripon? That might draw custom but wouldn't go down well for anywhere but Ripon.

*In 1966 I recall the booking clerk at West Jemond arranging a return from there to Haslemere, my first encounter with the Southern Region.


20260831_143240.jpg
 
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YorksLad12

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Rebuilding to Ripon wouldn't be to replicate the services of 1958. That era has gone. Where would the numbers come from in the 2030s and for what level of services? Change Harrogate services to York to hourly and make it hourly from Leeds to Ripon? That might draw custom but wouldn't go down well for anywhere but Ripon.
All good points (which I snipped, sorry). And the timetable excerpt is very telling - no-one wants to go back to those days, I'd hope. Part of me thinks that the railway only went to Ripon because it was somewhere on the way to Thirsk/Northallerton...

I'd say platform space is a greater issue rather than frequencies. You could have three trains per hour from Leeds to Harrogate; two extend to York as now, one up to Ripon. A second train from Ripon would run to Harrogate, reverse and then head to York. Leeds-Harrogate and Harrogate-York would each have 3tph, Ripon-Harrogate 2tph (it wouldn't need more than that). But the extra services would need platforming; they'd have to cross the ECML at York as well.

Another option is to run Leeds-Harrogate-York hourly, Leeds-Harrogate-Ripon hourly and York-Harrogate-Ripon hourly. That maintains the current 2tph on the Leeds-Harrogate and Harrogate-York sections, but makes it awkward for anyone from Starbeck or Knaresborough working or studying at Harrogate College (Hornbeam Park).

But it's all moot, as the numbers aren't there to justify the expense, even if you took tourism to a cathedral city into account.

We need some sort of scale to measure this on. Call it the Skipton-Colne Relativistic Scale... is it more or less likely than reopening Skipton-Colne?
 

yorksrob

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For context British Railway's 1955 Modernisation Plan had not started to reduce annual losses, worse, they were increasing enormously. The railway seemed to be locked in a doom loop for both passengers and freight. Richard Beeching was appointed Chair in June 1961 and his team produced the report "The Reshaping of British Railways" with Part 1 published on 27th March 1963.

It was comprehensive and clearly had to be based on the declining situation existing at that time, a period when most statistics were looking dire. It could take little heed of unknown changes in Britain over the next 60 years. The future looked to be road based! If you haven't read it I suggest you do, see; https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech001a.pdf

Looking back he got a lot right. There wasn't much time for detailed considerations. Lines were already closing before the report. Rail's core freight generator, coal, was in truly terminal decline - although not fully realised at that time.

Of course there were bound to be errors, especially looking back with the benefits of hindsight. The Ashington area I remember very well from that time - lots of coal. Most freight lines had to remain open. The passenger services at that time were very infrequent and didn't feed into Newcastle Central - no platform space. Manors had 9 platforms but isn't in the heart of the city. It was right to cease passenger services running as they were back then. At that time any suggestions of expansion would have been laughed out. The world changed over the next 50 years. Today's services run half hourly into the Central on upgraded extant freight tracks. They serve a totally different market, a new passenger railway overlaying parts of that old freight base. They couldn't have happened back then with all the slow coal trainds still operating.

Ripon? See below for an extract from the summer 1958 timetable (apologies for reproduction, it's getting frail). That's about the period Beeching's research team would have been considering for costs and benefits.

If anyone thinks timetables in 2026 are complicated try working round ones like this. My father loved to do that and bought them every 6 months. See all the Monday - Fridays, Saturdays only, Fridays only, change at Northallerton type foot notes. Most folk went to their local booking office and had their journeys planned for them*.

South East Northumberland has changed immensely since 1958. There are many more potential customers and they are using the trains. It still cost, and will continue to cost the various arms of government enormous amounts of subsidies to keep it going.

Rebuilding to Ripon wouldn't be to replicate the services of 1958. That era has gone. Where would the numbers come from in the 2030s and for what level of services? Change Harrogate services to York to hourly and make it hourly from Leeds to Ripon? That might draw custom but wouldn't go down well for anywhere but Ripon.

*In 1966 I recall the booking clerk at West Jemond arranging a return from there to Haslemere, my first encounter with the Southern Region.


View attachment 210737

Given the timetable was so complicated, its amazing the line generated the traffic it did.

Imagine how much better the railway might have performed with a more regular timetable and light weight DMU's.

Beeching/Marples are cut a lot of slack on these forums.
 

NCT

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And wants are not the same as needs

We can theorise wants and needs as much as we want. At the end of the day it depends on what a collection of individuals consent to their money being spent on.
 

yorksrob

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We can theorise wants and needs as much as we want. At the end of the day it depends on what a collection of individuals consent to their money being spent on.

I'm part of the polity. Given the choice, I would agree to a proportion of my taxes being spent on linking towns to the railway.

Boris Johnson is much disliked on this forum, but whatever his faults, I have always applauded his reversing Beeching policy.
 

NCT

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I'm part of the polity. Given the choice, I would agree to a proportion of my taxes being spent on linking towns to the railway.

Boris Johnson is much disliked on this forum, but whatever his faults, I have always applauded his reversing Beeching policy.

Believe you me when I say I'm to the left of the national average. I'm afraid your economic views are part of a very small minority.
 

yorksrob

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Believe you me when I say I'm to the left of the national average. I'm afraid your economic views are part of a very small minority.

And yet the reversing Beeching policy came from the Conservative party under Boris Johnson !
 

yorksrob

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It did, right up to the point they realsied how many votes it was winning, and then….

I suspect that the policy was one of the positive things affecting the governments popularity.

There were of course, probably other factors having a negative effect on its popularity at the time as well.
 

deltic08

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Following the former line from Harrogate to the outskirts of Ripon (as far as the Ripon By-Pass) using Rail Map online shows that the former track has been built over in parts; sometime just the one building/house, sometimes several.

You're forgetting as well that any build on the former or a new alignment will require much more space than the line itself - former station buildings now used as private dwellings would be in that buffer zone. Which pushes the cost up. Definitely not a no-brainer, to refer to a different thread.
Please read my latest post. There are no buildings on the Ripon-Harrogate trackbed. of consequence. Only garden sheds at Wormald Green where gardens have been extended onto the trackbed. Arup suggested a slight diversion to the west at South Stainley with a combined road/rail bypass for Wormald Green to eliminate the short, sharpe hill that always causes closure of the A61 in sub zero temperatures. This would save building another bridge over the A61 at South Stainley and double bend here being replaced by embankment. Access would be via the underbridge opposite the Red Lion pub now called the Inn. It would also solve the problem of the former level crossing at the end of Wormald Green station platforms as a new cutting through rising ground part way along the Markington road would be bridged together with the new bypass. Unfortunately a house has recently been built on this line and may have to be sacrificed.
 

Killingworth

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And yet the reversing Beeching policy came from the Conservative party under Boris Johnson !
That's politics, shunt proposals into the long grass. Satisfy as many MPs as possible and their constituents plus special interest groups with jam tomorrow possibilities. Push the big financial costs as far as possible into the future for someone else to deal with by delay, deferral and finally cancellation.. Like MML electrification and numerous other examples. All the feasibility studies will eat up enough funding to exhaust the budget for actually completing more than one or two of them, eventually.

Find and watch old episodes of Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister for tutorials in this sort of cynical government!
 
Last edited:

deltic08

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For context British Railway's 1955 Modernisation Plan had not started to reduce annual losses, worse, they were increasing enormously. The railway seemed to be locked in a doom loop for both passengers and freight. Richard Beeching was appointed Chair in June 1961 and his team produced the report "The Reshaping of British Railways" with Part 1 published on 27th March 1963.

It was comprehensive and clearly had to be based on the declining situation existing at that time, a period when most statistics were looking dire. It could take little heed of unknown changes in Britain over the next 60 years. The future looked to be road based! If you haven't read it I suggest you do, see; https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech001a.pdf

Looking back he got a lot right. There wasn't much time for detailed considerations. Lines were already closing before the report. Rail's core freight generator, coal, was in truly terminal decline - although not fully realised at that time.

Of course there were bound to be errors, especially looking back with the benefits of hindsight. The Ashington area I remember very well from that time - lots of coal. Most freight lines had to remain open. The passenger services at that time were very infrequent and didn't feed into Newcastle Central - no platform space. Manors had 9 platforms but isn't in the heart of the city. It was right to cease passenger services running as they were back then. At that time any suggestions of expansion would have been laughed out. The world changed over the next 50 years. Today's services run half hourly into the Central on upgraded extant freight tracks. They serve a totally different market, a new passenger railway overlaying parts of that old freight base. They couldn't have happened back then with all the slow coal trains still operating.

Ripon? See below for an extract from the summer 1958 timetable (apologies for reproduction, it's getting frail). That's about the period Beeching's research team would have been considering for costs and benefits.

If anyone thinks timetables in 2026 are complicated try working round ones like this. My father loved to do that and bought them every 6 months. See all the Monday - Fridays, Saturdays only, Fridays only, change at Northallerton type foot notes. Most folk went to their local booking office and had their journeys planned for them*.

South East Northumberland has changed immensely since 1958. There are many more potential customers and they are using the trains. It still cost, and will continue to cost the various arms of government enormous amounts of subsidies to keep it going.

Rebuilding to Ripon wouldn't be to replicate the services of 1958. That era has gone. Where would the numbers come from in the 2030s and for what level of services? Change Harrogate services to York to hourly and make it hourly from Leeds to Ripon? That might draw custom but wouldn't go down well for anywhere but Ripon.

*In 1966 I recall the booking clerk at West Jemond arranging a return from there to Haslemere, my first encounter with the Southern Region.


View attachment 210737
The timetable to Ripon would be nothing like 1958. The new line to Ripon would be single with a dynamic loop midway. This would allow 2tph. They would be timetabled between the 2tph Leeds-Harrogate-York service giving Harrogate-Leeds 4tph. At the time of the 2005 study, Harrogate Councill wanted 4tph to Leeds. A fast limited stop service was tried in between the all stations stoppers but was discontinued after 18 months. Arup calculated that the additional passengers from the Ripon-Leeds service would make up the numbers on the extra limited stop services from Ripon to Leeds in a time of 42 minutes.
All good points (which I snipped, sorry). And the timetable excerpt is very telling - no-one wants to go back to those days, I'd hope. Part of me thinks that the railway only went to Ripon because it was somewhere on the way to Thirsk/Northallerton...

I'd say platform space is a greater issue rather than frequencies. You could have three trains per hour from Leeds to Harrogate; two extend to York as now, one up to Ripon. A second train from Ripon would run to Harrogate, reverse and then head to York. Leeds-Harrogate and Harrogate-York would each have 3tph, Ripon-Harrogate 2tph (it wouldn't need more than that). But the extra services would need platforming; they'd have to cross the ECML at York as well.

Another option is to run Leeds-Harrogate-York hourly, Leeds-Harrogate-Ripon hourly and York-Harrogate-Ripon hourly. That maintains the current 2tph on the Leeds-Harrogate and Harrogate-York sections, but makes it awkward for anyone from Starbeck or Knaresborough working or studying at Harrogate College (Hornbeam Park).

But it's all moot, as the numbers aren't there to justify the expense, even if you took tourism to a cathedral city into account.

We need some sort of scale to measure this on. Call it the Skipton-Colne Relativistic Scale... is it more or less likely than reopening Skipton-Colne?
The latest anmual visitor numbers to Ripon is 1.3 million. They have no option but to come by road. Arup gave us a figure of 8% would come by train if there was one but would not show as revenue from the line as their tickets would be purchased elsewhere. That is why a lot of seaside towns lost their railway under Beeching as the booking office revenue was low but still contributed to overall revenue and provided a service to the public. Was Beeching too stupid to realise this or was he devious like at Ripon?
I'm part of the polity. Given the choice, I would agree to a proportion of my taxes being spent on linking towns to the railway.

Boris Johnson is much disliked on this forum, but whatever his faults, I have always applauded his reversing Beeching policy.
I agree entirely
Pretty sure the trackbed through Littlethorpe is no longer available.
The trackbed is still there at Littlethorpe but grassed over..
 

ox_chap

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Without making any judgment on the specifics, but sadly as a resident of Oxfordshire, seeing the line to Milton Keynes empty of passenger trains I suspect makes other reopenings less likely. Would you put scarce infrastructure money in to new railways if the Ox-MK issues might reoccur?
 

Ashley Hill

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Without making any judgment on the specifics, but sadly as a resident of Oxfordshire, seeing the line to Milton Keynes empty of passenger trains I suspect makes other reopenings less likely. Would you put scarce infrastructure money in to new railways if the Ox-MK issues might reoccur?
Given that GWR staff are currently route learning that route for engineering diversions why not award this route to them. But then that’s for another thread!
 

ox_chap

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Given that GWR staff are currently route learning that route for engineering diversions why not award this route to them. But then that’s for another thread!
Well indeed, for another thread. But the hourly train from Paddington that terminates at Oxford would look good carrying on over East West rail. Gives Winslow a through train to London and Milton Keynes gets a direct train to Reading for the coach to Heathrow. And maybe that’s how Ripon should think - trains that are part of longer distance journeys…
 

yorksrob

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That's politics, shunt proposals into the long grass. Satisfy as many MPs as possible and their constituents plus special interest groups with jam tomorrow possibilities. Push the big financial costs as far as possible into the future for someone else to deal with by delay, deferral and finally cancellation.. Like MML electrification and numerous other examples. All the feasibility studies will eat up enough funding to exhaust the budget for actually completing more than one or two of them, eventually.

Find and watch old episodes of Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister for tutorials in this sort of cynical government!

But we do actually have a couple of new railways and stations to show for it - which is more than was achieved in England for the previous two decades.

Sometimes politics works !
 

quantinghome

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But we do actually have a couple of new railways and stations to show for it - which is more than was achieved in England for the previous two decades.

Sometimes politics works !
How quickly we forget... other England reopenings in the last two decades include:

- Oxford - Bicester (Evergreen 3)
- Shoreditch-Dalston Jn (London Overground)
- Corby branch

And there are many more going further back.

The 'reversing Beeching' reopenings were no different in terms of policy outcome to the steady progress made over previous decades. And they were the lowest of low hanging fruit.
 

Bahnopa

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As It wrote earlier, there is, though, a huge difference between reactivating existing infrastructure (Corby on a freight and diversionary line, Okehampton on a preserved and freight line, the Robin Hood Line Nottingham-Worksop largely on freight lines) and starting effectively from scratch on a route where the original infrastructure has been mostly eradicated.
 

Mr. SW

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Looking at that timetable one begins to wonder about what exactly BR (and presumably the [real] LNER and NER) were exactly trying to do. I suspect that this sort of thing was rather more common than people would like to think, even then.

Ripon was a nice bus ride from what I remember from too many years ago, thus I suspect the solution is staring us in the face.
 

Grumpy

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Ripon, although a lovely place with tourist attractions nearby has a tiny population of approx 17,000 and a surrounding area that is hardly overrun with people.
So more than the likes of Okehampton, Marlow, Henley and Fort William then? Also more than the whole of the populations served for the 20+miles of the Waverley route south of Gorebridge. Add in the planned developments mentioned by Deltic08 and you're coming up to the likes of Portishead, Barnstaple, Skegness and Newquay.
 

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