Short intercity trains should be hurled into the sun

NCT · Monday at 21:36

py_megapixel said:
The Norwich trains aren't "regional stock". They've got vestibules, first class, a buffet counter, and the same seat design as the 810.

I don't understand why people keep saying this sort of thing. How can we say any alternative bidder wouldn't have had similar issues?

IIRC Bombardier's bid was a bi-mode Aventra. No such thing has ever been built before, and even the pure electric Aventrae haven't exactly been problem-free.

Monopolist complacency; all eggs in one basket and all that.

RailUK Forums

The exile · Monday at 21:56

LNW-GW Joint said:
Every modern vehicle has had to earn its keep in the UK for decades, and utilisation of long-distance stock is probably well superior to that on the continent.

"More intensive" only equals "superior" up to a certain point - that point varies depending on whether or not you're a bean counter only interested in what happens up until the next April 5th.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 21:59 ==

Topological said:
I agree that there are problems, but surely the bigger issue is just that there are not enough short trains. In GWR land it makes sense only sending 5 of the carriages to Carmarthen and allowing places on that line a train to London every 2 hours (and a longer train to Cardiff every 2 hours) is really a bonus. GWR just do not have enough 5-car 80x for their daily use.

To be fair, they probably do (or would if they all worked properly). The problem is that they are having to "waste" some of them trundling around on regional stoppers because there's nothing else available.

dk1 · Monday at 22:14

Hurled into the Sun.

I can honestly say i have never heard that phrase before in over 50 years on this earth.

Bald Rick · Monday at 22:16

dk1 said:
Hurled into the Sun.

I can honestly say i have never heard that phrase before in over 50 years on this earth.

Same here mate.

I thought the phrase meant being sick into a tabloid. I’ve definitely done that.

dk1 · Monday at 22:17

Bald Rick said:
Same here mate.

I thought the phrase meant being sick into a tabloid. I’ve definitely done that.

Brilliant and so so appropriate :lol:

swt_passenger · Monday at 22:39

So what have learnt so far?

1. XC trains are too short. But their fleet size was and is still rigorously controlled by DfT, even though there are unused units of the same class available.

2. EMR trains are too short. Their fleet size was also agreed by DfT.

By the way, how many threads on these subjects have we got now?

TT-ONR-NRN · Monday at 22:46

Bald Rick said:
Quite. That’s why EMR have bought the units necessary for the service (which is a significant increase in existing capacity), and not a much larger fleet that would be overcapacity and therefore lots of expense for no reason.

Mmm. Shame they don’t work and staff refuse to work them x

NCT · Monday at 22:52

TT-ONR-NRN said:
Mmm. Shame they don’t work and staff refuse to work them x

Those issues are independent of train length.

Haywain · Monday at 23:07

TT-ONR-NRN said:
staff refuse to work them x

Except on days when they don't refuse, which is most days.

HamworthyGoods · Monday at 23:18

Harpo said:
Music to the DfT’s ears. Got away with regional stock on Norwich, so onto Sheffield, then Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Bristol etc. and all bar London to Scotland can follow on.

Such a shame to be wishing away quality even if it’s IET’s interpretation of quality.

Why do you class the Stadler’s between London and Norwich as regional stock?

They use a very similar low floor design to the Stadler trains deployed on Euro City services been Switzerland and Italy.

Bayum · Monday at 23:25

swt_passenger said:
So what have learnt so far?

Absolutely nada.

cle · Monday at 23:26

HamworthyGoods said:
Why do you class the Stadler’s between London and Norwich as regional stock?

They use a very similar low floor design to the Stadler trains deployed on Euro City services been Switzerland and Italy.

A sub 2 hour journey does not need the same treatment as a service to Scotland or Cornwall. Deal with it.

EMR maximum excluding foibles is Sheffield, fully wired and with stock, it’d be the same.

GWR is a mix between Bristol (could use Norwich stock) and Swansea / West Country (needs more space and amenity - even if it is also a stopper at the country extremity)

Egg Centric · Tuesday at 02:58

dk1 said:
Hurled into the Sun.

I can honestly say i have never heard that phrase before in over 50 years on this earth.

I was always taught that the earth would (along with remaining IETs) become part of the sun in a few billion years when the latter becomes a red giant. It turns out though that the latest science is not quite so clear on this and the IETs may in fact be obliterated by the moon crashing into the earth as the solar system as a whole collapses. If they've however been carefully located in Box Tunnel with the reset of the strategic reserve then there's a possibility of lasting over 100 undecillion years or when my latest Avanti Delay Repay claim is sorted, whichever is later. There's more info about this here in what's quite a fun article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth

81A · Tuesday at 06:44

LNW-GW Joint said:
Euston-Chester/Holyhead and Paddington-Oxford/Worcester/Hereford are two services that seem to work well with 5-car trains, doubled up in the peaks from Chester/Oxford.

There's not the money to replace all the 5-car trains with 9/10-cars instead.
Foreign experience isn't valid when their business models are so different.
Every modern vehicle has had to earn its keep in the UK for decades, and utilisation of long-distance stock is probably well superior to that on the continent.

Definitely not all day in the case of Worcester to London-I have regularly been on 5 carriage services towards London that have people standing in the vestibules, etc by Charlbury or even Kingham. Same in reverse, with people standing from London to Charlbury/Kingham (not to mention it is a regular occurrence that every/nearly every reservable seat is booked)...

This is without mentioning the fact these services don't get doubled up at Oxford, often meaning they are at the point of leaving people behind for the Oxford-London section. Needless to say, some of the worst offenders have recently been changed to 9 coaches to everyone's satisfaction...

Bletchleyite · Tuesday at 06:55

Harpo said:
So add 810 seats, a buffet and some first class and a 150 can be an InterCity train too? (They’ve already got the same ‘vestibules’).

Clearly not. But in terms of EMUs what defines intercity these days? Is 110mph regional? If you stick the doors in the middle so they are in the low floor bit is that regional even though there are fewer door apertures per unit vehicle length than a Pendolino? Do double doors make it regional?

Yes, the R in FLIRT means regional, but in practice it just means "110mph or less" these days, and if the linespeed is at that level with no prospect of increase I see no issue.

Harpo · Tuesday at 07:24

Bletchleyite said:
in terms of EMUs what defines intercity these days? Is 110mph regional? If you stick the doors in the middle so they are in the low floor bit is that regional even though there are fewer door apertures per unit vehicle length than a Pendolino? Do double doors make it regional?

What defines InterCity for me is a quality of environment that suits a long distance journey and trumps travelling by car. Linespeed is irrelevant.

I certainly don’t want to be exposed to the elements at every station stop in suburban train style, something which makes the current 745/755 internal layout ‘regional’ in my eyes.

py_megapixel · Tuesday at 07:29

Harpo said:
I certainly don’t want to be exposed to the elements at every station stop in suburban train style, something which makes the current 745/755 internal layout ‘regional’ in my eyes.

The Norwich 745s have partitions and sliding doors to make proper vestibules, which is not the case on 755s nor I believe the Stansted 745s

dk1 · Tuesday at 07:34

py_megapixel said:
The Norwich 745s have partitions and sliding doors to make proper vestibules, which is not the case on 755s nor I believe the Stansted 745s

Which have only been used in the last couple of years. Catering trolley staff disliked them very much. Drivers are no longer permitted to isolate them and they operate as soon as the train commences its journey.

Harpo · Tuesday at 08:08

py_megapixel said:
The Norwich 745s have partitions and sliding doors to make proper vestibules, which is not the case on 755s nor I believe the Stansted 745s

Except that at every station stop passengers are exposed to the elements in suburban train style as there is no separation of the seated areas. Not a high quality experience and something that doesn’t happen in genuine InterCity designs.

cactustwirly · Tuesday at 08:12

Haywain said:
It's not as simple as that though. It's 6 arrivals and 6 departures each hour, and at times that have to fit in with the wider south MML timetable. The fact is that EMR's inter city operation is severely constrained by the space they've been given at St Pancras and it's no good solving the rolling stock problem without looking at the bigger picture.

Or maybe a balance of the two, after all St Pancras had HSTs and 7 car 222s until recently, so it can work.
Ie 15 or so 9 cars and 15 or so 5 cars

py_megapixel · Tuesday at 08:12

Harpo said:
Except that at every station stop passengers are exposed to the elements in suburban train style as there is no separation of the seated areas. Not a high quality experience and something that doesn’t happen in genuine InterCity designs.

I don't think I understand what you mean, sorry.

The 745's seating areas are separated from the exterior doors by means of an interior door and partition.

Harpo · Tuesday at 08:18

py_megapixel said:
I don't think I understand what you mean, sorry.

The 745's seating areas are separated from the exterior doors by means of an interior door and partition.

At every station stop, both sets of doors open and passengers next to the vestibule are exposed to the elements.

py_megapixel · Tuesday at 08:21

Harpo said:
At every station stop, both sets of doors open and passengers next to the vestibule are exposed to the elements.

That is the case on every train though! Unless both sets of doors open, how are passengers supposed to board?

Harpo · Tuesday at 08:36

py_megapixel said:
That is the case on every train though! Unless both sets of doors open, how are passengers supposed to board?

No. I cannot remember ever being on a Pendolino or HST, 180 or similar and being made physically aware of the external weather conditions as the seats are not four feet from an external door.

Bletchleyite · Tuesday at 09:13

Harpo said:
No. I cannot remember ever being on a Pendolino or HST, 180 or similar and being made physically aware of the external weather conditions as the seats are not four feet from an external door.

80x are regional then, because the small toilets are in the vestibule end, not between the seats and the doors.

Maybe if it bothers you that much just sit in the middle of the coach? I personally like a bit of exposure to the outside world at stations provided the heating/aircon is working well.

quantinghome · Tuesday at 09:33

NCT said:
The IET was still a minority train type against a lot of 23m carriage other intercity train types.

I don't think that's correct. What other designs of intercity trains have been built for British railways in the past 20 years? The Class 745 (arguments over definitions aside) was a small order, as was the Class 397. Pretty clearly the IET has effectively become the default when ordering new intercity trains.

NCT said:
It would be irresponsible for anyone to put their faith in a single model for a single supplier.

Yet this is what most other countries do, and what we have done in the past. There are risks of putting your eggs in one basket, but these are outweighed by the advantages of having a single type of train in terms of economies of scale and ease of operation and maintenance. The classic reference case is Transpennine Express's order of three different train types. Had they gone for a single order of 80Xs they would have been in far better shape. We don't have a very large market for intercity rolling stock and attempting to sustain multiple suppliers means losing economies of scale.

NCT said:
The Aurora saga suggests it was probably unfortunate Hitachi emerged as the winner of the EM intercity procurement.

The Class 805 and 807 were ordered after the Auroras and have been in service for a couple of years now. It seems Hitachi can build their standard 80X design fairly effectively, but the bespoke features of the 810 have caused a lot of problems.

Haywain · Tuesday at 09:39

quantinghome said:
attempting to sustain multiple suppliers means losing economies of scale.

Failing to do so creates monopolies where economies are lost through lack of competition.

quantinghome · Tuesday at 09:59

Haywain said:
Failing to do so creates monopolies where economies are lost through lack of competition.

There are risks with monopolies; there are risks with competition. And there are advantages with both as well. For competition to win out over monopoly, the potential market needs to be of a sufficient size to be able to sustain more than one supplier and maintain economies of scale. I don't think the British rail market for intercity trains is large enough to do that. It's barely large enough for one supplier. The costs of duplication are too great.

EDIT: it would be different if we could order off-the-shelf intercity trains from the European manufacturers but our loading gauge means we need special train designs (at considerable development cost to the manufacturers) that will only be used here.

cle · Tuesday at 16:50

Oh I do love a defining InterCity thread... my offering is:

it needs this on a map: <-O->

OVS Flatbottom · Tuesday at 18:39

dk1 said:
Hurled into the Sun.

I can honestly say i have never heard that phrase before in over 50 years on this earth.

I haven heard't the exact phrase either, but the concept certainly reminds me of Disaster Area...

Short intercity trains should be hurled into the sun

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