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Faded print on All Line Rover ticket and poor LNER customer service

badcat

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3 Mar 2023
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12
Location
Plymouth
Hi all.

Not sure if this is the right forum so apologies if not.

I'm at a bit of a loss on what to do with this one. I bought a 14 day first class All Line Rover from the LNER travel centre at Edinburgh Waverley at the end of June. The ticket was on the newer stock with a QR code and I was given an older style protective wallet. The print started to fade quickly and by the end of the first week I began to fear that the print would not last. Not just the bar code - the general details on the ticket as well.

The fading was exacerbated because so few barriers accepted the bar code. I had to constantly take out the ticket to show barrier staff. The first couple of weeks of July were very hot so not good for thermal prints.

By the end of day 10, the QR code could not be scanned even by on train staff. While you could just about make out most of the details, the expiry year, ticket number and issuing station were difficult to see.

I decided to cut my trip short. I didn't want to risk getting in to an argument with a RPI at the other end of the country if the details had faded too much for them to accept the ticket, and the fading I was seeing led me to believe that it wouldn't last to the end of day 11.

I emailed LNER customer support (as the retailer) explaining what had happened. The reply was rather strange to say the least. It was a bit flippant; littered with spelling and language errors but basically said the information would be passed on but that the rules on the ticket (issue stock and reprinting) are down to National Rail. My follow up to this (asking for more specifics on NR contacts) was ignored. As a result, I formally complained and asked about recompense, and (so far), that has been ignored too.

I emailed National Rail (customer relations) on 17 July about the policy (why no reprint for multi day rovers and so little acceptance at barriers), and within an hour they came back. Really sympathetic, but they couldn't help because they didn't deal with ticketing issues, and were at a loss as to why LNER referred me to them.

So I'm not sure what to do. I've seen the thread on a similar problem last year. It seems to me to be wrong that the industry excludes multi day rovers from the reprint conditions; that and lack of barrier acceptance for an ALR is what I wanted to take up with whoever sets the policy.

On the LNER side, I felt that any recompense was unlikely but the flippant response and being ignored has angered me. In the end, the loss of four days entitlement on a 14 day first class ALR is a lot of money. While I chose to take that hit, the risk of the ticket not being accepted was real and I should not have to be in that position.

I've travelled on several multi day rovers in the past including ALRs; all on CCD tickets with little or no barrier acceptance but no print problems at all so this is a new one on me.

Any advice/thoughts welcome.

Regards,
Tim
 
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Haywain

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that and lack of barrier acceptance for an ALR is what I wanted to take up with whoever sets the policy.
Acceptance of rover tickets is problematic because all have the same coding on CCST tickets, and a decision has to be made whether to accept all, regardless of geographical validity, or nothing. Nothing was the easier answer as the number of affected customers is generally very small. I have no idea whether distinct programming would be any easier with barcoded rover tickets.
 

badcat

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Joined
3 Mar 2023
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12
Location
Plymouth
As I was posting this I got an update from LNER; they have offered me £75.00 for how the complaint was handled but reiterated the situation, and I quote "As the ticket would have been printed in a clear condition, it is the passengers responsibility to ensure their ticket is kept intact and is not damaged as per the National Rail conditions of Travel (NRCOT)."

I can't see how this is fair if the circumstances (lack of barrier acceptance and heat) make it difficult for the ticket to last 14 days. Believe me; I tried my best to protect it as best I could!
 

speedy1

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Location
Mossley
Very poor show. It's a shame the NRCOT do not give a right to a replacement like they do for season tickets. Funnily enough that's also the section the big warning about looking after your ticket is contained in, so they can't have it both ways. You could argue it's as expensive as many monthly seasons and should apply the same (having the right for a replacement from the retailer, LNER)

Typical snooty reply from customer service staff these days

Push for more compensation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Or if you paid by card do a chargeback
 
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AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
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You were entitled to a replacement ticket under Condition 4.8.

Did you insist on this? It is your absolute right.

If a Ticket is damaged to the extent that it is not legible and cannot (where applicable) be scanned or otherwise validated, it will not be valid for travel. However, if you return it to the Train Company or Licensed Retailer that sold it to you, they will arrange for a replacement Ticket to be issued to you unless there is reason to suspect that it has, or will be, used for fraudulent or improper purposes. You may have to pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10) for the replacement.
 

badcat

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3 Mar 2023
Messages
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Location
Plymouth
You were entitled to a replacement ticket under Condition 4.8.

Did you insist on this? It is your absolute right.

If a Ticket is damaged to the extent that it is not legible and cannot (where applicable) be scanned or otherwise validated, it will not be valid for travel. However, if you return it to the Train Company or Licensed Retailer that sold it to you, they will arrange for a replacement Ticket to be issued to you unless there is reason to suspect that it has, or will be, used for fraudulent or improper purposes. You may have to pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10) for the replacement.
I asked about a reprint; as far as I understand it it is for Season tickets only, and multi day rovers are not included in this. Also, some barrier staff said to me (when they had problems scanning the ticket) that it was unfortunate that they could not be reprinted. I know other parts of the NRCOT put season tickets and rovers together. I just don't think it's clear enough. In any case, even if it were an entitlement, if there isn't a procedure for it, it doesn't help. Also I didn't know the full details of this until after the event.
 

speedy1

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349
Location
Mossley
I asked about a reprint; as far as I understand it it is for Season tickets only, and multi day rovers are not included in this.
You and I made the same mistake. There are conditions for both seasons and all other tickets. Perhaps a reread yourself if you don't trust established forum members such as AlterEgo who even quoted the passage..
 

Vexed

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I had some CCSTs permanently ruined due to a waterlogged TVM collection tray. I didn't ask for them to be reissued at the time, they were only ruined when I took them out of my ticket wallet and the text stayed on the wallet's plastic!

I was lucky to have my recent ALR issued to CCST at Reading along with some new ticket wallets. The clerk said they weren't expecting new National Rail wallet stock ever / until GBR.

Unfortunately, I think the best thing to do (even if it's just for delay repay) is to take a photo as soon as you get them.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
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It would be good to actually look at the ticket to see how bad it got. Ultimately the OP probably wants a pro rata refund but given they never were told the ticket was actually invalid or denied travel there is a reasonableness test which will come into play here. However the way the initial complaint was handled was diabolical and they ought to have suggested a reprint at the very least.
 

yorksrob

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This is a poor show.

Back in the days when my annual metrocard was printed on magna-stripe stock, the date would sometimes start to wear off (not surprising with a year of being put through barriers). The ticket office at Leeds would print out a replacement without quibble there and then.

It seems ridiculous that travel centres are refusing to just re-print and replace ALR's on the substantially inferior bog roll stock.
 

badcat

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@AlterEgo - Your wish is, as they say... Bear in mind the photo looks better than the ticket, and it was noticeably getting worse each day. On what I want: I'm inclined to accept LNER's offer, but I think it's important to highlight that this can be a real problem. I've reread the NRCOT section and I'm inclined to accept what you said. The problem for me is that while I'm reasonably rail savvy, it's not to the extent of the forum experts and it's a bit late now!
 

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speedy1

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Many here are well aware of the quality of that kind of ticket. The company is also well aware. It's nicknamed bogroll

It's ridiculous such an expensive 14 day ticket is printed on bogroll. I'd argue it was known defective when sold.

People taking £75 compensation is a massive win for the company
 

badcat

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Location
Plymouth
Many here are well aware of the quality of that kind of ticket. The company is also well aware. It's nicknamed bogroll

It's ridiculous such an expensive 14 day ticket is printed on bogroll. I'd argue it was known defective when sold.

People taking £75 compensation is a massive win for the company
Understood. I haven't decided what to do yet. LNER said in the email that the reprint policy is not down to them but they (and nobody at NR) have explicitly stated who does set the policy.
Did you, at any point, approach a booking office and ask for a reprint?
Yes, at Manchester Piccadilly on day 10; answer was Season Tickets only.
 

AlterEgo

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Understood. I haven't decided what to do yet. LNER said in the email that the reprint policy is not down to them but they (and nobody at NR) have explicitly stated who does set the policy.
It's a moot point anyway becuase the Conditions are explicit in that you were entitled to a reprint. No idea why they argued about this, and in any case the Conditions are set by the Rail Delivery Group. That's the trade body all train companies belong to, and it acts on their behalf. It's not like LNER don't have some input!

The response you were given is quite simply invented by someone who was guessing.
 

AlterEgo

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Probably because there are no means of actually doing it.
I'd understand that from the point of view of the front line staff but arguing something which is false to gaslight a customer because you have no means of doing it is dreadful complaint handling after the fact.
 

Watershed

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Understood. I haven't decided what to do yet. LNER said in the email that the reprint policy is not down to them but they (and nobody at NR) have explicitly stated who does set the policy.
Industry policies such as this are set by RDG following agreement from all the TOCs - including LNER. Incredibly frustrating when they try to pretend not to have any involvement.

More to the point, you were entitled to a reprint as the ticket was becoming unreadable, so the premise of their response is fundamentally wrong. The problem is that strictly speaking you were only entitled to this from another LNER ticket office (or their central customer services but that would obviously have been too slow in the circumstances).

I would continue your complaint as I agree that printing a 14 day, high value ticket on a medium that deteriorates so quickly is completely unsuitable and is indicative of a lack of reasonable care and skill in my view. You're entitled to a price reduction (i.e. partial or full refund) in the event of such a failure and given the lost pro-rata value of ~£275 I don't think £75 is anywhere near enough.
 

LowLevel

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Probably because there are no means of actually doing it.
Never tried it but I think I could do it on my mobile ticketing system, it would involve overriding the price and making a suitable entry on the shift shift as a report. No idea if the powers that be would consider it appropriate but I think it would work.
 

speedy1

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It's probably not much more than they get from selling it - hardly a big win.
I meant to say the (wider) railway. They got 11 days for the price of 14. Minus the compensation they're quids in

And we both know customers frequently buy additional tickets eg during disruption on advances. Someone in their position may have bought additional tickets for the remaining days

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Regarding Manchester Piccadilly, wouldn't they have been correct to deny a reprint as per NRCoT though as nobody there is LNER? Ie not the retailer it was purchased from
 

Mcr Warrior

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You're entitled to a price reduction (i.e. partial or full refund) in the event of such a failure and given the lost pro-rata value of ~£275 I don't think £75 is anywhere near enough.
Indeed. So, £206.94 for a three day pro-rata refund or £275.91 if for four days? Agree that £75.00 is a wholly inadequate fob-off.
 

Haywain

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And we both know customers frequently buy additional tickets eg during disruption on advances.
That's of no relevance at all.
Someone in their position may have bought additional tickets for the remaining days
If the OP had bought additional tickets for the remaining days, as a direct result of actually having problems using the rover, they would be in a much stronger position. Having simply given up is a rather weak position, in my opinion.
 

voyagerdude220

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Did you, at any point, approach a booking office and ask for a reprint?
I appreciate the OP has been in contact with LNER, but I feel any reprint should be obtained from LNER as they're the company who sold the OP their original ticket.

I think in terms of compensation from LNER they should as a minimum offer the OP replacement days [or maybe more as a good will gesture because of how poorly they've treated the OP] for the time they were not able to use their rover ticket and a goodwill cash gesture, i.e. the £75 they've offered.

I could be wrong, but I believe the LNER MD is a member of this forum.
 

Buzby

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For such an expensive ticket, I’m surprised you didn’t think to take a photograph of it! All my prior ALRs were CCST’s and I would have queried if a bog-roll ticket was going to be issued (as I would have rejected it). Any ticket can be easily lost so if your proof exists as a photo, this would back up your assertion that you’ll not be inconvenienced by their cost-cutting!
 

badcat

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Plymouth
Regarding Manchester Piccadilly, wouldn't they have been correct to deny a reprint as per NRCoT though as nobody there is LNER? Ie not the retailer it was purchased from
If the advice at Manchester was get a reprint from LNER at Edinburgh, I could have done that, given what time it was and my schedule. It was being told that there could be no reprint that made me change my plans and return to Plymouth, which is where I live.
For such an expensive ticket, I’m surprised you didn’t think to take a photograph of it! All my prior ALRs were CCST’s and I would have queried if a bog-roll ticket was going to be issued (as I would have rejected it). Any ticket can be easily lost so if your proof exists as a photo, this would back up your assertion that you’ll not be inconvenienced by their cost-cutting!
I normally do, but I normally get tickets from Plymouth. I didn't think to do so as I was already away when I started the ALR. Funny that I never had problems with CCD tickets but the first major bogroll ticket fades. I still have the ticket - it's in the same state as it was as it's been kept in a dark drawer!

Thanks everyone; this has been really helpful; at least I don't feel as though I'm overreacting. To summarise: It looks like I took the (incorrect) view that reprinting was only available tor season tickets, so the advice from both LNER customer services today and Manchester Piccadilly ticket office about reprinting the ticket is wrong. That makes the offer rather derisory. I think I'll go back to LNER and quote section 4.8 and see what they say. On the timing of all of this: my initial query to LNER was sent on 11 July, which would have been day 12 of the rover. It's only stretched out so long because they have taken a full two weeks between each reply, which in itself isn't great. Let's hope they come back rather more quickly this time.

Regards,
Tim
 
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speedy1

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349
Location
Mossley
If the advice at Manchester was get a reprint from LNER at Edinburgh, I could have done that,
Oh I wasn't having a go at you. IMO any company should have reprinted it for you. Was just advising, in case you were going to rely wholly on the wording of that NRCOT section for something etc
 

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