Sent by a friend. I assume this happened yesterday (Saturday 29th August):-
Any insight would be appreciated, ta.
Any insight would be appreciated, ta.
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Edinburgh/Glasgow Priority During Disruption On WCML
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The wonders of regulation statements (if such exist for this scenario).
The lack of, may account for the signaller bowing to the bigger toc (this case, Avanti).
I know no more of the inner workings these days, but in some areas it used to be the case that certain TOCs came out better then others in such situations.
The lack of, may account for the signaller bowing to the bigger toc (this case, Avanti).
I know no more of the inner workings these days, but in some areas it used to be the case that certain TOCs came out better then others in such situations.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Could it to be to maintain connections from the South. I assume the Avanti was coming from either London or Birmingham so it could have had passengers wanting to go to Lockerbie and Edinburgh on board?
On the ECML, York would have let it go ahead, even if the other services had less stops
On the ECML, York would have let it go ahead, even if the other services had less stops
voyagerdude220
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Looking on Realtime Trains, it seems as if the two late running Avanti trains 1S76 (16:41 departure from Preston to Glasgow Central) and 9S77 16:53 departure from Preston to Glasgow Central) both managed to run between Preston and Carstairs South Junction as fast as each other, but the TPE 1S74 (17:01 departure from Preston to Glasgow Central) was 17 minutes slower than the two Avanti, despite the TPE only making one more stop than the Avanti Pendolinos.
I'd guess preference is given to Glasgow because of the higher line speed at Carstairs for trains going towards Glasgow compared with the speed trains go around the curve at Carstairs towards Edinburgh.
I'd guess preference is given to Glasgow because of the higher line speed at Carstairs for trains going towards Glasgow compared with the speed trains go around the curve at Carstairs towards Edinburgh.
The TPE isn’t timed 17 mins slower though even if it did take that long in this situation. The difference in timings for an Avanti running with all stops to Carlisle and a TPE with the same plus a Lockerbie call is c10mins between Carlisle and Carstairs.
Between Preston and Carlisle TPE can easily match a Pendolino’s timings due to faster acceleration and not having as long a train to wait to clear speed restrictions although TPE are timed for c3 mins longer on that section.
The main delay to any train closely following any other north of Preston is at Lancaster. Lancaster Platform 3 has a flashing yellow approach. But it is also on a downhill gradient.
So when the train ahead is occupying the platform instead of a high speed flashing approach a train will receive yellows towards a red with a long signal section due to the gradient and the red being around two curves (albeit with a banner repeater).
There is then often a minute or so extra if a Morecambe/Barrow train is snuck into the gap and fast accelerating TPE 397s can receive yellows towards Hest Bank if the crossing has been raised between trains and not got back down quickly enough.
After Carnforth the delays usually disappear although TPE trains will often still catch yellows into Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle but they will often step up as the train ahead clears. With pathing time this doesn’t usually add delay after Lancaster. It’s not unusual for the Pendo that left Preston to still be in the platform at Carlisle finishing station duties as the TPE arrives.
The differing stopping patterns with Avanti often missing Oxenholme or Penrith do make a difference but on all stoppers Avanti and TPE are pretty much the same until beyond Carlisle.
Between Preston and Carlisle TPE can easily match a Pendolino’s timings due to faster acceleration and not having as long a train to wait to clear speed restrictions although TPE are timed for c3 mins longer on that section.
The main delay to any train closely following any other north of Preston is at Lancaster. Lancaster Platform 3 has a flashing yellow approach. But it is also on a downhill gradient.
So when the train ahead is occupying the platform instead of a high speed flashing approach a train will receive yellows towards a red with a long signal section due to the gradient and the red being around two curves (albeit with a banner repeater).
There is then often a minute or so extra if a Morecambe/Barrow train is snuck into the gap and fast accelerating TPE 397s can receive yellows towards Hest Bank if the crossing has been raised between trains and not got back down quickly enough.
After Carnforth the delays usually disappear although TPE trains will often still catch yellows into Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle but they will often step up as the train ahead clears. With pathing time this doesn’t usually add delay after Lancaster. It’s not unusual for the Pendo that left Preston to still be in the platform at Carlisle finishing station duties as the TPE arrives.
The differing stopping patterns with Avanti often missing Oxenholme or Penrith do make a difference but on all stoppers Avanti and TPE are pretty much the same until beyond Carlisle.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The prior/following hour will have the 2nd and 3rd trains north from Preston (Glasgow/Edinburgh) services reversed (ie the Avanti running to Edinburgh and the TPE to Glasgow), and the Glasgow TPE is then the more likely to be delayed as the last one in the flight.
So I don't think Edinburgh services are specifically disadvantaged, though the first priority will be the 1st train (ie the direct Euston-Glasgow).
The main purpose is to flight the 3 fast passenger services to enable slower freights/stoppers to follow.
So I don't think Edinburgh services are specifically disadvantaged, though the first priority will be the 1st train (ie the direct Euston-Glasgow).
The main purpose is to flight the 3 fast passenger services to enable slower freights/stoppers to follow.
I had a similar strange one the other day that puzzled me.
Waiting at Carlisle for the Avanti Edinburgh . The Glasgow in front was delayed and was about ten minutes behind us. The Edinburgh was held for the Glasgow to get in front. That Edinburgh is the one that stops at both Oxenholme and Penrith so not sure why the Edinburgh was held as it would have surely made it to Carstairs well in front of the Glasgow.
In the end it didn't make any difference as my connection was shot with the evacuation at Waverley.
Waiting at Carlisle for the Avanti Edinburgh . The Glasgow in front was delayed and was about ten minutes behind us. The Edinburgh was held for the Glasgow to get in front. That Edinburgh is the one that stops at both Oxenholme and Penrith so not sure why the Edinburgh was held as it would have surely made it to Carstairs well in front of the Glasgow.
In the end it didn't make any difference as my connection was shot with the evacuation at Waverley.
Solweytracker
Member
Extrapolating slightly off topic, but for completeness, where are the Lumo Euston -Stirling services in this prioritisation pecking order? Are some of their recent delays in part palpably worsened because of a low prioritisation cf the non open-access ones?
Looking at Carlisle departures they appear to be
0922 Avanti Glasgow
0950 Lumo Stirling
1002 Avanti Glasgow (West Mids)
1010 TPE Glasgow (Liverpool)
1016 TPE Edinburgh
1415 TPE Edinburgh
1424 TPE Glasgow (Liverpool)
1429 Lumo Stirling
1449 Avanti Glasgow
1502 Avanti Edinburgh
1518 TPE Glasgow
1649 Avanti Glasgow
1705 Avanti Edinburgh
1709 Lumo Stirling
1715 TPE Glasgow
1953 Avanti Glasgow
2001 Avanti Glasgow (West Mids)
2018 TPE Edinburgh
2022 Lumo Stirling
No particular order for Lumo
Falcon1200
Established Member
What looks like strange regulating can be for non immediately obvious reasons, eg late running Train A has a shorter turnround (stock and/or Traincrew), at destination than on time Train B so while additional delay is caused to Train B, the return workings of both trains depart on time.
Solweytracker
Member
Thanks, and taking it further towards my query whether regulation affects Lumo delays disproportionately, looking at the 24 northbound Lumo trains scheduled at Carstairs South Jcn from 24/8 to 29/8 in RTT, I found no evidence of that. These open access services and adjacent passenger trains generally arrived in the normal WTT sequence.
However this did suggest occasional competition for right of way at Preston between the 1S02 Lumo LE/Stirling due to dep PRE 1559 and the 1S71 TPE MIA Glasgow due off PRE at 1604. On 25/8 and 27/8 1S71 was released first. Easily explained by 1S71 arriving 5 min earlier than 1S02 and closer to right time on the 27th, but on 25th 1S02 had arrived first, 9 min late and left 16 min late.
Offsetting this, on 29/8 while delayed held up at Preston, 1S03 Lumo LE/Stirling due to dep PRE 1906 was given priority to depart at 1957, over 1S83 TPE MIA/Edinburgh due to dep PRE at 1903 but actually leaving at 2000.
As Falcon1200 points out, often non-obvious factors affect regulation.
TheHovisKid
Member
Don't forget the extra 3 mins loss leaving Lancaster while Potty Ian does announcements....
Who lets him have that thing!
sjm77
Member
Lumo would of been held so that passengers could use the station toilets.
voyagerdude220
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Looking at the OP's 1S75 17:04 Preston to Edinburgh on Saturday 29th on Trust delay attribution is as follows:
5 at Preston- Brake/Wheels issue (Train fault?)
4 Preston- Garstang- following late 1S74
17 Garstang to Lancaster- Blanket Speed Restriction (Weather?)
then
9 Tebay-Penrith/6 Penrith-Carlisle/5 Carlisle-Gretna Junction all down to following late 4S57.
Edit: Interestingly the Avanti 1S76[16:41 from Preston] and 9S77[16:53 from Preston] were only further delayed between Preston and Carstairs by two weather related speed restrictions.
5 at Preston- Brake/Wheels issue (Train fault?)
4 Preston- Garstang- following late 1S74
17 Garstang to Lancaster- Blanket Speed Restriction (Weather?)
then
9 Tebay-Penrith/6 Penrith-Carlisle/5 Carlisle-Gretna Junction all down to following late 4S57.
Edit: Interestingly the Avanti 1S76[16:41 from Preston] and 9S77[16:53 from Preston] were only further delayed between Preston and Carstairs by two weather related speed restrictions.
Thanks for all replies.
Or sometimes it's just bad regulating, plain and simple! I'm not expecting perfection, but sometimes humans (or computers with badly input ARS!) make mistakes. Also the signaller will also not know the full crew details and then train running controllers / signallers have to make a decision or "best endeavours".