tumbledown
Member
Sounds like more discrimination against the computerless. You find out whether you can afford to travel when you turn up at the station.
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Day-Flex Single tickets
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RailUK Forums
Or you call telesales...
It remains to be seen whether these would even be sold on the day of travel or whether, as is now the case for Advances in the GMPTE area, they are only sold before that.
It absolutely is dynamic pricing. The price goes up with demand and they may even sell out completely, leaving you to pay the Anytime price.
This is all about abolishing Off Peak and making people pay more during major events, busy summer days, Christmas markets etc.
British Rail did it decades ago - the blue day / white day era.
This is as I suspect.
It amazes me that just because an algorithm engages in sharp practice, some people see it as ok.
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At least you knew when the blue/white day was - and of course, you always had the option of off-peak.
But that was entirely predictable, and was a relatively small difference between guaranteed levels of flexible fares.
Day Flex tickets are absolutely nothing like Savers / SuperSavers in terms of the pricing and availability.
The 5p ITX tickets are used for that
It also requires work from everyone to actually treat the availability response for a single service as reflecting the whole day, to avoid excessive load on the reservation system which is widely known to not have enough capacity
Aside from the fact without bespoke work to implement availability for this properly, the bodge they'll do will inevitably mean someone messes up configurations frequently and different services will get different prices for the same day when they shouldn't
Farigiraf
Member
Of course there are benefits to using yield management strategies. But a quick poll on here: how many of you would rely on the railway for a flexible journey if the price is completely random by the day? I certainly don't check if there are football games or concerts or school holiday days when travelling, I travel when it suits me, as trains generally run every half-hour/hour so why shouldn't I? So on any random Saturday a typical day out to London could end up costing significantly more than now just because it's a particularly busy train.
Yes, there are less busy trains which would be cheaper, but even with the current super-off peak offers these trains are typically lightly loaded, which shows just how many people actually want to travel at these times if it was up to them and not the DfT.
It's particularly frustrating as the vast majority of railway users outside of the devolved commuter network regions (which presumably would still keep an affordable flexible option, even if it's only PAYG) do have a car which they could take, so something as simple as a switch to day-flex could seriously hurt regional rail demand and clog up regional roads/towns even more. But as we've seen from a number of nearby countries - namely France and Spain - this is nothing new, it seems like most governments at the moment are working towards a stealth-Beeching on regional rail as it's so 'unprofitable' in their eyes. Surely it won't come back to bite us?
Yes, there are less busy trains which would be cheaper, but even with the current super-off peak offers these trains are typically lightly loaded, which shows just how many people actually want to travel at these times if it was up to them and not the DfT.
It's particularly frustrating as the vast majority of railway users outside of the devolved commuter network regions (which presumably would still keep an affordable flexible option, even if it's only PAYG) do have a car which they could take, so something as simple as a switch to day-flex could seriously hurt regional rail demand and clog up regional roads/towns even more. But as we've seen from a number of nearby countries - namely France and Spain - this is nothing new, it seems like most governments at the moment are working towards a stealth-Beeching on regional rail as it's so 'unprofitable' in their eyes. Surely it won't come back to bite us?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It does simplify in the sense that you remove the complexity of different times of validity. While it can be simplified to a standard time e.g. XC's 0930 restriction (though that still confuses some people, i.e. is it "not before 0930" or is it "0930 and later"?).
However, the idea of what is essentially a walk up fare that could be priced extremely randomly is a bit of a weird way of doing it. Deutsche Bahn I believe prices Flexpreis differently by day of the week, but it isn't quota controlled in that sense, it's just a different price on a Saturday from a Wednesday. You can still look what it is this Wednesday and it'll be the same next Wednesday. This latter principle may almost be a sensible way of doing it combined with quota controlled Advance and 70 Minute Flex options on top, because it deals with the post COVID situation of rather different levels of usage on different weekdays that doesn't fit into the old Mon-Fri vs. Sat/Sun approach, and it gets rid of the main complexity of Off Peak fares, namely the time restrictions.
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They do have a strong motivation to do this. The more fares sold online, the fewer booking offices and TVMs are needed. Cinemas did this a different way by switching from open seating to reserved seating which motivates you to book early to secure a good seat even if the price is the same 2 weeks out as 5 minutes out (which it is on insistence of the film distributors*). The effect was the near total removal of box offices (and associated staff and space usage) within a very short space of time.
* easyCinema did try yield managed pricing but I recall it was the film distributors that blocked this because they get a cut of each ticket and were not willing to have that reduce, though some cinemas do seem to have cheaper rates on less busy days.
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To be honest I think this is sillier than the LNER trial, and that really takes some doing.
I wonder does this mean we'll see the Avanti "edition" of the trial that was rumoured soon, and if so how it will differ, or if that one has been sacked off because of the commercial complexities of a non-DfTO operator being involved in it?
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redreni
Established Member
I was in York during the Christmas Market the Christmas before last, since such markets have been raised as an example of when Anytime fares are likely to be charged at weekends. Not only were all the trains rammed, so were the roads.
The whole city centre was gridlocked. Is the government insisting local authorities double parking charges during these events? Is it telling them to impose road user charging if people want to drive into the city? Or does it want to make the truly chronic traffic congestion - which totally wrecked the city's bus services on the Saturday I was there, including the park & rides - worse?
The whole city centre was gridlocked. Is the government insisting local authorities double parking charges during these events? Is it telling them to impose road user charging if people want to drive into the city? Or does it want to make the truly chronic traffic congestion - which totally wrecked the city's bus services on the Saturday I was there, including the park & rides - worse?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Aside from Liverpool Stns-Manchester Stns and related flows (i.e. "most of Merseyrail to most of Greater Manchester") what other flows is this on, or is it just that set?
See attached some basic fares data analysis.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Thanks. Looks like it mostly centres on Liverpool. Oddly it includes Liverpool-Sheffield but not Manchester-Sheffield so there will presumably be some decent level of split anomalies even if they have put a fair bit of effort into avoiding workaround stations unlike LNER.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Don't worry I'm sure it will be spun as positive PR rubbish like 'cheaper advance tickets' and 'making travel simpler by doing away with confusing offpeak rules'.
Want to travel towards Manchester on a Saturday leading up to Christmas with the Manchester Christmas market on as well as kickball, that will be the anytime only fare please
Want to travel towards Manchester on a Saturday leading up to Christmas with the Manchester Christmas market on as well as kickball, that will be the anytime only fare please
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's all a bit bodgey for now while it's trials (and I really can't see this nonsense going through to all of GBR as it is - it's far less logical than even the LNER trial) but I'd imagine once GBR designs its long term fares structure then the accreditation requirements will change accordingly.
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To be fair unless you standardise on a simple rule e.g. not before 0930 (which itself causes split anomalies) the times of validity of off peak walk up tickets *are* the main complicated thing about the system.
I did wonder if GBR would consider binning off that aspect and just making walk ups vary by day, with Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday most expensive, Monday and Friday in the middle, then Saturday, then Sunday cheapest, which I think is sort of the basis of Deutsche Bahn's system (similarly with Advances on quieter trains on those days).
Doing it with quotas is rather messy and confusing compared to just having fixed prices for each day.
The problem is time and time again these "trial" have had the conclusions written before they've started.
And for the trial to actually give useful results [if we give the benefit of the doubt that it's actually a trial with evaluation criteria], the TIS work needs to be done to support the fares properly.
I don't necessarily agree changing the accreditation requirements is the issue here, as if the issue is the retailers won't make changes unless forced. Most retailers (perhaps some TOC suppliers aside) are willing to work with RDG/GBR/DfT on this, and we all want a much better dataset for fares etc because what they currently give us is simply unfit for purpose. Retailers in fact explicitly did not want this bodged into the existing creaking availability system when it completely violates the model that system relies on. They're just unwilling to work with retailers, and fundamentally do not understand the consequences of their actions because they won't work with the retailers and TIS suppliers.
Views are my own
MalaiseForever
Member
Deleted.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Crikey, another one worse than the LNER one then, if there's no 70 Minute Flex, just Advance (and worse-than-Advance, a bit like Superfare I guess) or Anytime! Particularly as per mile AWC's Anytimes are far poorer value than LNER's.
Any clues what route(s) so we can prepurchase for important journeys where flexiblity is required? I seem to recall it was talked about being a middle distance one, so London-Liverpool or London-Manchester perhaps?
(Harder to find out about this one by way of Freedom of Information I guess given that AWC remains privatised thus far).
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MalaiseForever
Member
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Thanks. That'll have Lumo laughing all the way to the bank!
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It seems that we are taking about the regional railway here.
It looks like the market will be segmented into three types of railway.
Intercity services, where the LNER trial closely follows what RDG proposed in their 'easier fares for all' consultation.
Short distance journeys, where the direction of Oval, Manchester, and other PAYG structures are clear with single leg peak and off-peak pricing, with standardised pre-0930 and 1600-1900 peak windows
That leaves 'regional' journeys where neither approach quite works, but there seems to be a desire to price more closely to demand.
Given the railway has a "Saturday morning problem" in many places, is it actually obvious that headline fares should be cheaper, or is that just for Intercity travel?
Do they not effectively have the same structure? The paucity of service means that passengers are effectively restricted to one train there as well.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though it sounds like the Avanti trial is likely to be less flexible than even that! Strange given that LNER have shouted about the 70 Minute Flex being quite popular - why not have a ticket like that?
Certainly, but what's short distance about Bletchley to Brighton, it's 100 odd miles? Plus the North West conurbation acts as one, journeys within it are really like London commuter journeys.
I could see sense in a line down the Pennines*, but Liverpool<->Manchester is a commuter type flow of about 40 miles. It's comparable (sort of) to if this nonsense scheme was applied to Milton Keynes to Euston (which it won't be as that will be an Oval flow in due course).
* Ish. Manchester<->Leeds and Manchester<->Sheffield are also commuter flows. There's been a lot of talk about TPE** needing to effectively be a big Elizabeth Line and I'm not convinced this trial does that - something more Oval like would.
** Possibly outside of Liverpool-Newcastle fasts which are more of an intercity service, but the rest of it is a hybrid commuter and regional service.
That of course has options, such as the three-step walk-up fares that were operated by WMT pre-Oval and still are on some flows, with Saturday Super Off Peaks carrying the same restrictions as weekdays (but Sundays Super Off Peak all day). Or something more like DB's Flexpreis with different anytime singles per day but fixed rather than quota controlled.
The quota control thing is clearly about wanting to surge-price for major events, plus wanting to reduce booking offices/TVMs even further as most people would then purchase on their phone or PC. Though at least I suppose Anytimes that don't have London at one end aren't *quite* as swingeing as ones that do.
No, on the West Coast there are Off Peak Returns on some flows, though they could of course remove them. But importantly the Anytime fare is much more reasonable.
There are other disadvantage of Lumo of course documented on the relevant threads.
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redreni
Established Member
But we're always being told the average passenger just buys a ticket that comes with an itinerary and sticks to the itinerary, in which case it isn't complicated at all.
It's also very rare for it not to be simple to deduce from journey planner results that for the off-peak fare, you can take this particular train or any train after that, but you can't take any earlier trains (assuming you're not getting up at silly o'clock). So people can benefit from useful flexibility without having to mess about reading and understanding restriction codes or anything of the sort.
It only gets more complicated when people such as ourselves notice that the restriction code text appears to allow something journey planners don't, or want to start playing around with splits or weird over-distance tickets to get a more favourable restriction code. It's fiendishly complicated then, but most people aren't doing that (or if they are, they're doing it via a split ticketing retailer on an itinerary, so they don't have to work it out themselves). Or - and this is where I concede average passengers can get caught out - where Railcards are involved so you have different time restrictions or time-based minimum fares overlaying ticket restrictions, but only if there's an R in the month.
The trouble with dynamic pricing is it makes the cost of rail travel unpredictable which incentivises people to use other modes, particularly driving. People making regular journeys are generally not confused about peak and off-peak restrictions as they apply to the particular ticket they buy and the journey they make, and they are able to budget for their regular journeys because the price is the same each time they do it. The motorists' lobby has resisted surge pricing of parking charges and has so far seen off attempts to surge-price road user charges such as London's Congestion Charge. There's absolutely no reason why rail passengers shouldn't resist surge pricing of off-peak rail travel equally strongly.
It should be all of Liverpool - Cleethorpes, although as it hasn't started being sold we're obviously not seeing the full picture. Maybe it won't all be there when it starts.
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The Scottish rules were pretty simple. Or they would be if they were kept up to date with the timetable. Obviously they're dead now, but they were that for the relevant restriction codes "Off Peak tickets may be used at any time, except, for working days:
- trains scheduled to depart before 0900 (or whenever)
- for boarding a train at $bigcitystations between 1600 and 1830"
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Kite159
Veteran Member
And the fuel companies when you get all those business folk using offpeak returns for the flexibility when travelling between London & Manchester (just look at how busy the first offpeak train is) switching to driving rather than paying over the odds for an anytime return.
The media will have a field day, especially as it's likely it will be those who work in the BBC living in the London area having to visit Manchester for meetings etc.
Or it will just push people to using LNR services between London & Crewe with either Northern or TfW to Manchester
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If the Minister has any sense, she'll quash it altogether.
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