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Thameslink to replace cushions on class 700 ironing board seats to improve comfort.. Finally..

AM9

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To resolve the capacity issues, how about DfT orders more carriages to extend some 8-cars to 12-cars?
Like the Pendos getting extended. Like the Class 345, 378s, 710s getting extended.
Are you sure that Siemens can still manufacture the same Desiro City cars, the fleet is now 10 years old. Even if they can, restarting a production line is extremely expensive for so few items.*

* Only a few could be extended as many of the stations on the metro routes can't accommodate 12 20m cars.
 
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RacsoMoquette

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What? The 387s are far superior and us GN users are not happy about how many GN diagrams are now regularly operated by a 700/0.

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Which is now impossible because those 387s are now with Southern... so I guess this is better than nothing.
It is not pleasant taking a Class 700 on a all stations Cambridge Stopper. Can be sat on this ironing board seats for over an hour. I always found the Class 387 Electrostar to feel very cramped internally compared to the out going Class 365s. The 365s had wider gangways and less tall seating. They felt much more spacious than the Class 387s.

Regarding internal comfort of trains, FCC days were better. I know the TOC had its problems but having Class 365s the mainstay of GN Mainline services and the mix of Class 317s and 321s supplementing was good. The trains had decent comfort and were suited to the work they were used on. Even the Class 313s on the FCC Moorgate Inners were far more comfortable than the Class 717s.

FCC also had a much better brand image and you knew the train was operated by FCC. The livery was also good. GTR have very random liveries appearing on the GN side. First it was Class 387s with Southern doors and once GatEx Class 387s and now debranded NX livery.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Regarding internal comfort of trains, FCC days were better.
You say that as if it's an objective fact. It's not.

For example, I actually found the lack of tables (big enough for a laptop) and armrests on the 365s quite irritating, whereas now I have those on the 387s, along with a quieter ride, making for a more comfortable journey for me personally. And the 379s, with the exception of the horrible voice of Matt Streeton, are a definite upgrade on anything FCC in my book.

The 321s and 317s had no amenities whatsoever. No air con, 3+2 seating, no charging points, absolutely nothing. And I think the FCC 313s might just be the nastiest train I ever set foot on.

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GTR have very random liveries appearing on the GN side. First it was Class 387s with Southern doors and once GatEx Class 387s and now debranded NX livery.
What I do firmly agree with though, is this. I actually prefer GTR's livery to FCC's, but the application of it's just so slapdash. GTR are particularly sloppy with 3 out of 4 Gatwick Express services now featuring Southern carriages, either partially or entirely, and red Gatwick Express trains forming most Southern Ore, Eastbourne and Southampton services.

And then does Great Northern even have an identity, when indeed 717s have Thameslink livery, 387s have Southern doors, and 379s are in rebranded National Express?
I figured the Thameslink and Great Northern liveries were supposed to be the same. If that's the case, updating the 379s to have the same lighter shade of blue on the doors would have looked far smarter. I suppose GBR is at least now incoming.
 

RacsoMoquette

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I agree with you that the new DVA on the Class 379 is utterly horrid. The new male voice just sounds so robotic and authoritarian.

I just don’t know why they didn’t retain Julie Berry as on the Class 387s and Class 700s.

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You say that as if it's an objective fact. It's not.

For example, I actually found the lack of tables (big enough for a laptop) and armrests on the 365s quite irritating, whereas now I have those on the 387s, along with a quieter ride, making for a more comfortable journey for me personally. And the 379s, with the exception of the horrible voice of Matt Streeton, are a definite upgrade on anything FCC in my book.

The 321s and 317s had no amenities whatsoever. No air con, 3+2 seating, no charging points, absolutely nothing. And I think the FCC 313s might just be the nastiest train I ever set foot on.

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What I do firmly agree with though, is this. I actually prefer GTR's livery to FCC's, but the application of it's just so slapdash. GTR are particularly sloppy with 3 out of 4 Gatwick Express services now featuring Southern carriages, either partially or entirely, and red Gatwick Express trains forming most Southern Ore, Eastbourne and Southampton services.

And then does Great Northern even have an identity, when indeed 717s have Thameslink livery, 387s have Southern doors, and 379s are in rebranded National Express?
I figured the Thameslink and Great Northern liveries were supposed to be the same. If that's the case, updating the 379s to have the same lighter shade of blue on the doors would have looked far smarter. I suppose GBR is at least now incoming.
It just feels that GTR have turned the GN Mainline services in to a metro/commuter service. When before the service to Peterborough and Cambridge/Kings Lynn were clearly outer-suburban and one could call the Kings Lynn service regional. In WAGN days catering facilities were provided on the Cambridge and Kings Lynn services on the Class 365. That proved the service was not at all akin to a metro/commuter service it is akin to today. Featuring metro style stock as in the Class 700s and the slightly more suited Class 387s and 379s.
 
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JonathanH

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In WAGN days catering facilities were provided on the Cambridge and Kings Lynn services on the Class 365. That proved the service was not at all akin to a metro/commuter service it is akin to today.
The standard, and availability, of off-train refreshments has changed since the days when catering was provided on such trains.
 

RacsoMoquette

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The quality of service is just better on the WCML. LNR from Euston operate outer-suburban and regional services of a comparable nature to GN. The Tring and Milton Keynes service still runs very comfortable and well suited trains. The Class 730/2 Aventra and the Class 350/1 Desiro create a very comfortable travel environment.

Cambridge Stoppers on GN still use uncomfortable stock.
 

BrianW

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I’d say etiquette probably suggests that the armrest should be left as per whoever was sitting there first. Having said that, if an obese person were to sit down then I’d probably be looking to have it lowered.

The armrests are a bit of an acquired taste. If someone finds them annoying it may well be because they are not sitting in the seat as designed. The seats are designed for those with properly shaped backs, and rely on sitting up tall. I didn’t like the armrests at first, but after being sure to be using them as a posture support I find them fine. They are definitely geared around people with good back posture and core stability / strength.
I guess designers 'know better' than users? Anthropometrics and ergonomics are IIRC considerations, along with psychology regarding colour etc. And economics of course regarding the number of seats, standees etc. IIUC people are becoming larqer- esp wider; in some ways First Class recognised these in relation to comfort. Someone has to pay. I seem to recall 'issues' related to Brighton-London trains- a lack of coat hooks for a sub-1 hour journey?
 

Mikey C

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To resolve the capacity issues, how about DfT orders more carriages to extend some 8-cars to 12-cars?
Like the Pendos getting extended. Like the Class 345, 378s, 710s getting extended.
On another thread, as a wild idea I suggested taking a trailer car out of the 707s, to lengthen a few of the 8 car 700s, seeing that the Southeastern network works better with 4 car units, rather than 5 cars one...
 

Harratt4

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Ha ha, no - I was talking generally.

When I'm on a 700 ( which is usually by choice over other types when there's more than one type on a route... ), I will be in a window seat, both feet on the floor and I'm nowhere near encroaching on the aisle seat floorspace.
HAHA.

I think we're at cross purposes - I am the same, *but* the leg nearest the window has to be at about a 30 degree angle inward to avoid the slope which feels uncomfortable. The leg furthest from the train wall isn't affected, I agree.
On the Thameslink trains I put the foot of the leg nearest the window on top of the flat ducting meaning both legs can remain straight down.

Would a picture help? I am not sure that is very clear!

On other trains if you imagine looking down at your legs / thighs as you are seated in the window seat your legs look like this:
/|

On Thameslink they look like this:
||

I find the former uncomfortable!
 

Peter Mugridge

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HAHA.

I think we're at cross purposes - I am the same, *but* the leg nearest the window has to be at about a 30 degree angle inward to avoid the slope which feels uncomfortable. The leg furthest from the train wall isn't affected, I agree.
On the Thameslink trains I put the foot of the leg nearest the window on top of the flat ducting meaning both legs can remain straight down.

Would a picture help? I am not sure that is very clear!

On other trains if you imagine looking down at your legs / thighs as you are seated in the window seat your legs look like this:
/|

On Thameslink they look like this:
||

I find the former uncomfortable!
Err... no, both my legs are straight down and no uncomfortable angles are involved. I actually find it more uncomfortable to put one foot on the ducting cover than to put both on the floor...
 

evergreenadam

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You may be surprised to know that I rarely bother to walk the length of a 12-car unit for the declassified 1sts, the exceptions being when I'm changing to the Lizzie at Farringdon, or alighting at Blackfriars. Legs and feet aren't what they were 10 years ago.
I think the suggestion from @NCT won't work since the original planned mix of /0s and /1s was broken when a south London politician made a fuss about some of his constituents having to wait 2 minutes in the core for another train that went beyond Blackfriars. The DfT grabbed the opportunity to save a bit of budget by ordering 5 less /1s and 5 more /0s. This resulted in some outer suburban services being 8-car instead of 12-car, on both the MML and the ECML routes north from St Pancras.

edit. Whilst I've been tapping this post in I see you've spelt out the impact better, whereas I've described basically how it got to here.
What would have gone through the core instead of the Sutton loop 4bph?
 

Magdalia

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The 321s and 317s had no amenities whatsoever. No air con, 3+2 seating, no charging points, absolutely nothing. And I think the FCC 313s might just be the nastiest train I ever set foot on.
Class 313s were bult in 1976, class 317s in 1982/86 and class 321s in 1990. Back then, passengers read newspapers magazines and books, or listened to cassettes on a Sony Walkman. Batteries were huge, and nothing was sufficiently portable to need to charge on a train. There was no internet, never mind wifi. But all of them moved large numbers of commuters in reasonable comfort, except when the weather was vey hot.

I actually found the lack of tables (big enough for a laptop) and armrests on the 365s quite irritating
When the class 365s were new in 1997, nobody took laptops on the train, as there was still no wifi. Laptops needed a dial up internet connection, so were not any use on a train.


In WAGN days catering facilities were provided on the Cambridge and Kings Lynn services on the Class 365.
That's because people stopped using the on train catering. That was partly due to faster journey times, after the 1999 timetable acceleration, but mainly passengers switching to the proliferation of on station refreshment outlets, who served a better quality product.

It just feels that GTR have turned the GN Mainline services in to a metro/commuter service.

The Kings Cross service hasn't been "main line" since electrification in 1978, and the Liverpool Street route hasn't been "main line" since through trains to Kings Lynn finished in 1990 prior to electrification north of Cambridge.

FCC turned the London-Cambridge/Fen Line into a commuter service because they had to, in order to cope with the huge increases in loadings, especially London commuting, when they first took on the franchise. Now GN has to deal also with the huge amount of inbound commuting traffic to Cambridge, especially from Ely.

Featuring metro style stock as in the Class 700s
The Cambridge stoppers are a Metro service and the class 700s are ideally suited to the task. Very few journeys are long: most Kings Cross/Finsbury Park passengers are not going beyond Knebworth, Potters Bar-Royston is the Hertfordshire Metro, with lots of short journeys and lots of people getting off and on, and north of Hitchin becomes a commuter service for Cambridge. Very few passengers are on the train for more than about 40 minutes.

And don't forget that the Cambridge stoppers are mostly class 700s because it was originally intended that the trains would run through the core to Maidstone. Be grateful that you never had to put up with that!
 

moonarrow458

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Considering these are metro units with frequent calling patterns, are seats really a priority? While I'm all for comfort, I've never found the seats "bad" on any trains.
Yeah plenty of people do more than 15 minute journeys on them - they are not just metro units. I don't know if you consider Brighton to london or london to bedford to be a metro journey.
They're not just used for 15 minute metro journeys though - try sitting on one for the 2.5 hours from Cambridge to Brighton. I did that once some years back and I'm not sure my body has ever quite forgiven me.
Whilst Cambridge to Brighton might be the extreme of a Thamesmink journey that not many people do, i did Horsham to London St Pancras this evening on a 700, which would be a fairly popular commute - that was 1hr20 mins - and yes my bum was quite sore afterwards. Not at all comfortable, i do not envy those who regularly travel 60+ minutes on class 700s every day - the people deserve better.

So new seats is well overdue, as is making sure every train has seatback tables. If only they could add chargers as is standard even on significantly older stock
 

AM9

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Yeah plenty of people do more than 15 minute journeys on them - they are not just metro units. I don't know if you consider Brighton to london or london to bedford to be a metro journey.

Whilst Cambridge to Brighton might be the extreme of a Thamesmink journey that not many people do, i did Horsham to London St Pancras this evening on a 700, which would be a fairly popular commute - that was 1hr20 mins - and yes my bum was quite sore afterwards. Not at all comfortable, i do not envy those who regularly travel 60+ minutes on class 700s every day - the people deserve better.

So new seats is well overdue, as is making sure every train has seatback tables. If only they could add chargers as is standard even on significantly older stock
I look forward to the first 700s being outshopped with new cushions to a chorus of complainers that they don't suit 'their' bodies. As has been commented above, a contoured cushion is fine for some but not for others. That will continue the rant noise for another 10 years.
Meanwhile the trains will continue to carry 1500+ passengers in safety as.intended.
 

bramling

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I look forward to the first 700s being outshopped with new cushions to a chorus of complainers that they don't suit 'their' bodies. As has been commented above, a contoured cushion is fine for some but not for others. That will continue the rant noise for another 10 years.
Meanwhile the trains will continue to carry 1000+ passengers as.intended.

Yet other types of train seem to also carry passengers as intended without people apparently finding them uncomfortable. There weren’t moans during the 20 years class 365s worked the GN, likewise I don’t recall reading any moans about the 379 seating. Personally I don’t find the 387 seating too bad nowadays as I’ve got used to it. The biggest issue on the 700s is the lack of space, IMO the seats in first are fine.
 

RacsoMoquette

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But what I want to know is why commuters in the WCML services out of Euston to Milton Keynes, Tring and Northampton. (Also calling at important commuter Hertfordshire destinations) get such better quality trains. The Class 350s are very comfortable and the new Class 730/2s in my opinion have one of the best suited and comfortable interiors of a modern train. Surely LNR/WM had to deal with increased customer loadings? but they still manage to operate comfortable rolling stock.
 

bramling

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But what I want to know is why commuters in the WCML services out of Euston to Milton Keynes, Tring and Northampton. (Also calling at important commuter Hertfordshire destinations) get such better quality trains. The Class 350s are very comfortable and the new Class 730/2s in my opinion have one of the best suited and comfortable interiors of a modern train. Surely LNR/WM had to deal with increased customer loadings? but they still manage to operate comfortable rolling stock.

The ECML does have some issues which the WCML doesn’t.

Firstly Euston has more platforms than King’s Cross, though doesn’t have Moorgate to handle inner-suburban services.

The WCML has more homogenous stuck for its long-distance services, which makes timetabking easier.

However the other issue is Cambridge, which has been a noose round the ECML’s neck for many years now. The capability to run fast services from Cambridge (and beyond) into Liverpool Street is, in turn, constrained by Stansted Express services, which essentially use up virtually all the longer-distance capacity on the West Anglia route inwards of Broxbourne. Whilst the ECML offers a slightly faster journey from Cambridge to London, this weighs heavily on capacity as many services are heavily laden with passengers travelling between Cambridge (and beyond) and London. Add in loads of housebuilding, particularly between Hitchin and Peterborough, and the ECML suburban services need a lot of capacity. All that said, I don’t believe Thameslink was the best way of doing this.
 

yorksrob

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I look forward to the first 700s being outshopped with new cushions to a chorus of complainers that they don't suit 'their' bodies. As has been commented above, a contoured cushion is fine for some but not for others. That will continue the rant noise for another 10 years.
Meanwhile the trains will continue to carry 1500+ passengers in safety as.intended.

But now they'll be able to put their coffee down on a train to Brighton - which is a good step forward.
 

MrJeeves

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The first class cabin which is active has announcements which state it is only for first class ticket holders.
Nonsense. There are no "announcements" of any kind. There are scrolling messages for about 5 seconds every couple of minutes between stops.

I'm not saying that 1st/declassified/standard is unclear, though.
 
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Bletchleyite

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But what I want to know is why commuters in the WCML services out of Euston to Milton Keynes, Tring and Northampton. (Also calling at important commuter Hertfordshire destinations) get such better quality trains. The Class 350s are very comfortable and the new Class 730/2s in my opinion have one of the best suited and comfortable interiors of a modern train. Surely LNR/WM had to deal with increased customer loadings? but they still manage to operate comfortable rolling stock.

A key difference between the WCML commuter services and Thameslink is that Euston is a terminus so boarding of large numbers generally takes place over 5-10 minutes in a relatively leisurely manner (despite what people say about it) whereas it needs to be possible to board 500 people within a minute somewhere like City Thameslink. This requires a very different design of interior so people can ram on and move around in a very limited time, more like London Underground than a terminus based commuter service. The 700s do this incredibly well.

While it does do longer journeys it is probably a better comparison to compare the 700s to the S8s on the Met Line rather than to the south WCML units.

The comparable service on the MML is the Corby service and it uses units basically identical to the WCML bar the lack of cab end gangways, and that works for the same reason.

I'll give you that the West Midlands 730/0s (the orange 3 car units) are basically the same idea as the 700s, though I wouldn't say there's a massive difference in comfort, though admittedly like the LNER vs GWR 800 thing the colour scheme makes them feel warmer and more welcoming. Both have narrow, cramped seats without armrests to ease moving through a busy train as a priority. But the /2s are just a different take on the 350 and aren't designed for large standing loads nor fast boarding, though they do carry a lot of people in 10 car formation, having about 20% more seated capacity over a 12 car 350 formation in very similar comfort.
 
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NCT

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I have seen social media posts from government ministers and MPs on the seat refurbishment, and I find the extent of poetic licence employed brazen and disappointing. The 'ironing board' really refers to the shape or the seat frame, and as far as I can make out it's only the seat cushions that are being replaced. Claims of 'ironing board seats being replaced' are at least misleading if not outright wrong.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I have seen social media posts from government ministers and MPs on the seat refurbishment, and I find the extent of poetic licence employed brazen and disappointing. The 'ironing board' really refers to the shape or the seat frame, and as far as I can make out it's only the seat cushions that are being replaced. Claims of 'ironing board seats being replaced' are at least misleading if not outright wrong.

I think most people also take it to mean that the cushion is no thicker than that on an ironing board even though the shape is the main reason. (I also heard the rather good but similarly shaped Grammer IC3000 seat on the GWR HSTs called that by the way!)

The frame shape is actually quite good because it reduces the claustrophobic feeling high backed seats can otherwise bring. Comfort is all about what cushions you put on it (bar that it's quite upright, but all modern train seats are). The Northern implementation on the 195/331 doesn't bring anywhere near as much ire as it's actually quite comfortable, though it did initially when the consultation supported the FISA LEAN and they chose that frame instead. However knowing how tight the airline seating is on the 195/331, the LEAN wouldn't have fitted because of its very thick back, so even offering it was an error. In this case you could replace the frames but it'd have to be with something similarly thin so as not to affect legroom so there would be nothing gained by doing so.

If you want to go and try what the new cushions are likely to be like, go and ride a 701 out of Waterloo. Those are just an Alstom version of the 700 in terms of legroom, layout etc, similar colour scheme too, but the seats are definitely better in comfort terms.
 

physics34

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Yet other types of train seem to also carry passengers as intended without people apparently finding them uncomfortable. There weren’t moans during the 20 years class 365s worked the GN, likewise I don’t recall reading any moans about the 379 seating. Personally I don’t find the 387 seating too bad nowadays as I’ve got used to it. The biggest issue on the 700s is the lack of space, IMO the seats in first are fine.
Yes.. certain train seats were less comfortable than the ones before but 700s are ALOT less comfortable. Any extra padding would be an improvement
 

NCT

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I think most people also take it to mean that the cushion is no thicker than that on an ironing board even though the shape is the main reason. (I also heard the rather good but similarly shaped Grammer IC3000 seat on the GWR HSTs called that by the way!)

The frame shape is actually quite good because it reduces the claustrophobic feeling high backed seats can otherwise bring. Comfort is all about what cushions you put on it (bar that it's quite upright, but all modern train seats are). The Northern implementation on the 195/331 doesn't bring anywhere near as much ire as it's actually quite comfortable, though it did initially when the consultation supported the FISA LEAN and they chose that frame instead. However knowing how tight the airline seating is on the 195/331, the LEAN wouldn't have fitted because of its very thick back, so even offering it was an error. In this case you could replace the frames but it'd have to be with something similarly thin so as not to affect legroom so there would be nothing gained by doing so.

If you want to go and try what the new cushions are likely to be like, go and ride a 701 out of Waterloo. Those are just an Alstom version of the 700 in terms of legroom, layout etc, similar colour scheme too, but the seats are definitely better in comfort terms.

My problem with the 'ironing board' is its shape - it's convex in the wrong places - it makes you hunch and doesn't offer sufficient lumbar support.
 

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