Stagecoach South & South East

duncombec said:

The question to be asked here is "are they still good bus territory?" And even if passenger numbers are reasonable, what is access like (e.g. parked cars?). I will admit I haven't used these routes (bit too far away from me for a random housing estate tour), but has anyone commenting done so, to give some idea of passenger numbers? Being aware, of course, that one person's "rammed" is another person's "never anyone on when I see it".

To take another example from elsewhere in Kent, on a pure "social strata" aspect, the Isle of Sheppey should be "good bus territory" - in fact, it's awful, and has been for decades.

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Not for a little while but I did use to use the 34 from Margate to Ramsgate via Newington. Admittedly it often coincided with school kicking out but it was busy. However, I would say that there wasn't that much use within Newington, which is also a bit of a nightmare for poor parking.

More generally, I am a little surprised by the number of friends/acquaintances on the main bus routes who will always use the car to get around Thanet. One friend has a bus stop literally opposite her house but it wouldn't occur her to jump on a bus

I moved down from London so I guess I tend to think public transport first and I do get the ease and flexibility of a car so it's probably more about my mindset!

duncombec said:

The question to be asked here is "are they still good bus territory?" And even if passenger numbers are reasonable, what is access like (e.g. parked cars?). I will admit I haven't used these routes (bit too far away from me for a random housing estate tour), but has anyone commenting done so, to give some idea of passenger numbers? Being aware, of course, that one person's "rammed" is another person's "never anyone on when I see it".

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This is a very good question. I’ve travelled on the 34 through Newington about 3 times over 10 years, and through the Dane Valley 4 times over the same period. So, I’m not exactly a regular user!

Going through Newington is quite eye opening in various ways. It’s quite astonishing to see such deprivation in 2026. Flytipping and litter everywhere, and cars parked in all sorts of unofficial places.
The 34 seemed fairly well used, stopping at most stops and fairly good passenger levels during an off-peak weekday. I’d love to see a proper analysis of passenger numbers here, but that’s something only Stagecoach would be able to tell us.
The worst section for parked cars and poor road layout was Stirling Way, but this won’t be served by the new 44.
I just feel that reducing the buses to hourly here, and what will perhaps be an unreliable service coming all the way from Canterbury, is a sure way to reduce passenger numbers to only those who have no other option.

Dane Valley on the old 32 and current 34 seemed fairly well used on my trips there too. But, again, I can’t give a comprehensive view on passenger levels there.

Newington and Dane Valley seem no different to most sections of the Loop route to me, in terms of types of housing and density. But they are not as easy to serve as the Loop route so I can understand why such areas may never have a very frequent route again.

In my opinion the whole of Thanet could do with some investment in public transport infrastructure, but I can’t see that happening any time soon.
For example, the Westwood Cross area which is all relatively new could have had the opportunity to install wide roads for bus lanes and bus priority when all these delightful shopping parks, car parks and housing estates were being built, similar to some of the Fastrack infrastructure, but there is of course very little political will.

duncombec said:

The question to be asked here is "are they still good bus territory?" And even if passenger numbers are reasonable, what is access like (e.g. parked cars?). I will admit I haven't used these routes (bit too far away from me for a random housing estate tour), but has anyone commenting done so, to give some idea of passenger numbers? Being aware, of course, that one person's "rammed" is another person's "never anyone on when I see it".

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Yes that's a fair point and I must admit my local knowledge is limited to occasional visits, when I mostly use the Loop, so I'm really an armchair commentator. But I have watched the steady decline in the bus network over the past decade and more, and especially in the past 7 years, and I find it rather alarming. Surely Thanet as a whole ought to be good bus territory, so why have large estates of dense housing like Newington, Dane Valley and Garlinge fairly quickly turned from high-frequency, well established urban routes to areas that Stagecoach now don't seem interested in? Surely it must be more than just Covid, increased social mobility and parking issues? Are there other local reasons (unreliability maybe (traffic? staff shortage?), or social/behavioural problems) that I'm not aware of? I've not seen anything to suggest that.

So my suspicion remains that there's an underlying reason related to Stagecoach itself (change of management, and/or change of ownership since Souter sold) that has somehow decreed a decline, or else required a higher profit margin that shifts the company towards asset-sweating rather than public service. The Loop and the 8 group are the core routes, sod the rest (unless KCC pay for them) and let's hope no one is interested in taking us on now. Seems to be a pattern across other areas as well. Shame.

alex397 said:

I just feel that reducing the buses to hourly here, and what will perhaps be an unreliable service coming all the way from Canterbury, is a sure way to reduce passenger numbers to only those who have no other option.

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Exactly this. Might as well give up really - which may be the idea.

alex397 said:

In my opinion the whole of Thanet could do with some investment in public transport infrastructure, but I can’t see that happening any time soon.
For example, the Westwood Cross area which is all relatively new could have had the opportunity to install wide roads for bus lanes and bus priority when all these delightful shopping parks, car parks and housing estates were being built, similar to some of the Fastrack infrastructure, but there is of course very little political will.

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It really does, but without BSIP or some other central government funding, or Stagecoach itself deciding to invest, it seems unlikely as you say.

izvor said:

Yes that's a fair point and I must admit my local knowledge is limited to occasional visits, when I mostly use the Loop, so I'm really an armchair commentator. But I have watched the steady decline in the bus network over the past decade and more, and especially in the past 7 years, and I find it rather alarming. Surely Thanet as a whole ought to be good bus territory, so why have large estates of dense housing like Newington, Dane Valley and Garlinge fairly quickly turned from high-frequency, well established urban routes to areas that Stagecoach now don't seem interested in? Surely it must be more than just Covid, increased social mobility and parking issues? Are there other local reasons (unreliability maybe (traffic? staff shortage?), or social/behavioural problems) that I'm not aware of? I've not seen anything to suggest that.

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Not knowing the area in question this is a slightly generic comment but there is a line where an area suddenly drops from good bus territory to bad bus territory without the housing or outward appearances of the area necessarily changing. Traditional good bus territory is often working class areas but the important word in that is the working bit, buses need a volume of regular travellers (the workers going to work and in these areas often both adults will work to some degree) combined with a population with some money available to be able to go into town regularly for shopping but that population either doesn't have the spare money to run multiple cars (so one of the household needs to use public transport either to get to work or to get to the shops) or that city centre parking is limited (either in cost or space) such that using public transport is attractive and so meaning there is a core market. If a large enough proportion of the population of an area have no one in a household employed you have neither regular commuter flows nor people with enough spare cash to travel into the local town centre for general shopping/leisure activities to support a reasonable bus service whilst no being obvious visually from travelling through an area which side of that line each area sits.

Leicester has two areas which have housing stock of similar type (& outward appearance) and similar density but one supports a service of every 10-mins or better whilst the other barely supports a half-hourly service. There are other differences, a area of retail and industry at the outer end of the higher frequency route to provide extra demand whilst well served main roads at either end of the estate dilute demand for the lower frequency service, but the core underlying demand is very different between two areas of outwardly very similar housing stock.

Dwarfer1979 said:

Not knowing the area in question this is a slightly generic comment but there is a line where an area suddenly drops from good bus territory to bad bus territory without the housing or outward appearances of the area necessarily changing. Traditional good bus territory is often working class areas but the important word in that is the working bit, buses need a volume of regular travellers (the workers going to work and in these areas often both adults will work to some degree) combined with a population with some money available to be able to go into town regularly for shopping but that population either doesn't have the spare money to run multiple cars (so one of the household needs to use public transport either to get to work or to get to the shops) or that city centre parking is limited (either in cost or space) such that using public transport is attractive and so meaning there is a core market. If a large enough proportion of the population of an area have no one in a household employed you have neither regular commuter flows nor people with enough spare cash to travel into the local town centre for general shopping/leisure activities to support a reasonable bus service whilst no being obvious visually from travelling through an area which side of that line each area sits.

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I think this is a crucial point that many enthusiasts don't see.

I don't know the area either so can't comment on the specifics. However, there is sometimes a belief that good bus territory = poorest places, and that simply isn't the case. People need to be active, physically and economically. If you don't have a worker or two in the household, who IS going to be taking the bus into town each day.

One other aspect is that people might have used the bus to get their shopping in. What has happened is that retailers have both been encouraged to set up stores in estates where they would never have considered doing so and/or retailers have now seen that there is money to be made, especially the discounters. That doesn't help bus operators.

As someone who worked at Thanet depot in the late 90s/early 00s, I can throw some light on some of the mystery around the decline of Stagecoach in the area.

The entire economic and social demographic landscape of Thanet has shifted way beyond a level that could ever have been predicted 25 years ago. But to understand today's network, requires an understanding of the historic behavioural lifestyle and travel patterns of residents.

The network and indeed economy is now centred on Westwood Cross. This didn't exist prior to 2005, when the area was a couple of supermarkets (both no longer there) and a scattering of legacy factories. Westwood Cross gets its name from the Pearce Signs Crossroads that stood there before the current roundabout replaced them in the mid 90s.

Thanet residents were highly insular and lived by long entrenched routines. Newington had 8 bph around y2k because around 95% of residents only ever went into Ramsgate. Dane Valley and Garlinge residents went to Margate in the same way. These services were heavily used by a generation of non driving pensioners who happily paid their half fare returns into their respective towns. This cohort has now been replaced by SUV driving boomers who would never consider using a bus unless its an open top ride for free on their otherwise unused ENCTS pass whilst on holiday.

Ramsgate and Margate have in effect now ceased to exist as town centres. They are no longer drivers of bus traffic.

Minnis Bay was always a loss maker which was only served because it required no additional resources in the days of the 8/88/9/99 ten minute headway original Island circular network. And again, demo wise, it is now stuffed with wealthy boomers, second home owners and air bnb lets. No tangible bus market there either anymore.

The 9 (in current form, not to be confused with the pre 2004 9/99 Minnis Bay - Margate- Ramsgate-Westwood- Margate high frequency circular) is a leftover from the former X81 limited stop Broadstairs- Ramsgate- Canterbury adults only, low fares express introduced during the 1994 rail strikes. This was a heavily used service in the peaks having a competitive with rail journey time of 40 mins (yes 40) from Ramsgate to Canterbury stopping only at Sturry en route. Daytimes were never overly heavily loaded. No surprise it now at the level it is now. The Minster and Monkton section was served by local minibus routes (42/51/39 IIRC) into Ramsgate and Margate.

Looking at the decline of the original towns, the influx of incomers (many likely remote 'workers'), rapidly increasing car owning boomer cohort coupled with endless traffic calming measures, 20 mph zones and traffic light phasing all contributing to traffic congestion across the island, its no great surprise that what was once a competitive battlefield for bus wars has now been reduced to what appears to be a skeletal network on borrowed time.

Is it also fair to say the rail service is better than in 2000?

telstarbox said:

Is it also fair to say the rail service is better than in 2000?

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No, not really - frequencies are broadly the same. However, as there are no barriers at any station in Thanet, there are those who chance their arm for a free train ride, rather than paying on a bus.

But the root cause has been aptly described by @OptareOlympus. And unlike many out of town schemes, this one was promoted by Thanet Council, apparently oblivious to the effect it would have on the existing town centres. It doesn't help that there are no parking charges anywhere at all in and around Westwood Cross, so the perceived cost of going there by car is essentially nil.

However, the marginality of town services is not confined to Thanet - they have been reduced in all of Kent's coastal towns, as well as further inland - Maidstone is about to see a reduction on the key London Road corridor into town that once supported 8 buses an hour - it's now down to 3, and the retail offer in the town centre is another one that has been undermined by the council granting permission for out of town retail.

OptareOlympus said:

As someone who worked at Thanet depot in the late 90s/early 00s, I can throw some light on some of the mystery around the decline of Stagecoach in the area.

The entire economic and social demographic landscape of Thanet has shifted way beyond a level that could ever have been predicted 25 years ago. But to understand today's network, requires an understanding of the historic behavioural lifestyle and travel patterns of residents.

The network and indeed economy is now centred on Westwood Cross. This didn't exist prior to 2005, when the area was a couple of supermarkets (both no longer there) and a scattering of legacy factories. Westwood Cross gets its name from the Pearce Signs Crossroads that stood there before the current roundabout replaced them in the mid 90s.

Thanet residents were highly insular and lived by long entrenched routines. Newington had 8 bph around y2k because around 95% of residents only ever went into Ramsgate. Dane Valley and Garlinge residents went to Margate in the same way. These services were heavily used by a generation of non driving pensioners who happily paid their half fare returns into their respective towns. This cohort has now been replaced by SUV driving boomers who would never consider using a bus unless its an open top ride for free on their otherwise unused ENCTS pass whilst on holiday.

Ramsgate and Margate have in effect now ceased to exist as town centres. They are no longer drivers of bus traffic.

Looking at the decline of the original towns, the influx of incomers (many likely remote 'workers'), rapidly increasing car owning boomer cohort coupled with endless traffic calming measures, 20 mph zones and traffic light phasing all contributing to traffic congestion across the island, its no great surprise that what was once a competitive battlefield for bus wars has now been reduced to what appears to be a skeletal network on borrowed time.

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As I say, I don't know the area but this resonates with my experience in other towns.

OptareOlympus said:

As someone who worked at Thanet depot in the late 90s/early 00s, I can throw some light on some of the mystery around the decline of Stagecoach in the area.

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Many thanks for this analysis which is very helpful.

I can see the demographic changes that you allude to, and the rise of Westwood Cross. To the former I'd add the ongoing influx of retired DFLs (down from London) who buy nice bungalows to retire to, drive everywhere, and don't touch buses at all. This seems to be especially prevalent in Thanet. Against this is the influx of immigrants, most of whom don't drive, and many of whom do work and do use the bus. Good customers. Westwood Cross has clearly created its own problems, abstracting bus traffic and adding local congestion. Yet it has a convenient bus station, and the bus depot is next door. QEQM hospital, another major traffic objective, is just up the road. Yet several areas have no direct links. I don't think the town centres are quite as bad as you state, particularly Ramsgate. I'll make a point of using the 32 and 34 next time I'm over there, and prepare to be shocked!

I still feel that a more proactive operator could have maintained a better service to the estates mentioned (not Minnis Bay!). To go from 4bph to zero in 2-3 years (Garlinge) surely can't be explained away by external factors. Looking at their network map for 2014 shows an almost insanely dense web of routes, several of which were low frequency and have disappeared without trace. The contrast with next month's network will be even more stark.

I am testing my own memory now but the Thanet network was this in 1999-2001:
8/88 - Canterbury - Margate- Kingsgate- Broadstairs- Ramsgate- Westwood- QEQM front- Margate (every 30 mins)

9/99 - Minnis Bay- Margate- Broadstairs- Ramsgate- Westwood - QEQM front- Margate (every 30 mins)

8/9 went A28 between Birchington and Margate, 88/99 went via Westgate Bay Ave.

100/200 KENT COMPASS - Margate - Broadstairs- Ramsgate- Sandwich- Deal -Dover- Canterbury- Whitstable- Herne Bay - Margate (4 hour circuit of East Kent, 100 anti clockwise, 200 clockwise, hourly each direction)

101/201 KENT COMPASS - Canterbury - Whitstable- Herne Bay- Margate- QEQM front - Westwood - Northwood - Broadstairs- Dumpton Gap - Ramsgate - Pfizer - Sandwich (hourly combined with 100/200 to give a half hourly headway between Canterbury and Ramsgate via Herne Bay and further combined with 94 to form the 20 minute headway between Ramsgate and Sandwich)

102/202 KENT COMPASS - variations of 101/201 that operated the full circuit but ran direct via A2 and Whitfield between Dover and Canterbury not Lydden.

8/88/9/99/Kent Compass group combined to form the ten minute headway between Birchington and Ramsgate via Margate and Broadstairs, although the gap left by the 101/201 operating via QEQM and Westwood and not Cliftonville was filled by the X81 (see below).

8/88/9/99 then combined to form a 15 minute headway between Ramsgate Harbour, Ramsgate Station, Westwood, QEQM front back to Margate.

X81 - Westwood- QEQM front- Margate- Kingsgate- Broadstairs- Ramsgate (non stop) Sturry- Canterbury- Gillingham- Chatham - Rochester- Strood - Wainscott. (hourly Westwood to Canterbury, every 2 hours to Medway Towns)

94 - Ramsgate- Sandwich - Eastry- Eythorne- Dover (hourly and part of the 20 minute Ramsgate to Sandwich headway).

Minibuses:

32 - Garlinge- Margate- Dane Valley (every 15 mins)

33 - Newington- Ramsgate (every 10 mins)

34 - Northdown Park - Margate- QEQM rear - Westwood - Newington- Ramsgate (hourly)

35 - Northdown Park - Margate- Westgate- Mountfield Way (hourly)

34/35 combined to give a 30 minute service Northdown Park to Margate.

39 - Ramsgate- Manston - Minster - Monkton ( poss 2 hourly)

51 - Westwood- QEQM front- Margate- Birchington- Acol- Minster - Monkton- St Nicholas At Wade (poss 3-4 a day IIRC)

That was the Thanet network in 1999-2001 during my years there. A completely different beast compared to today. Sundays and Evenings were slightly different and basically only saw the 100/200 every hour and the 8A every hour. The 8A was the 8 but ran via Newington. I'm pretty sure nothing else ran on Sundays.

Operationally, Thanet also ran the 622 Plucks Gutter - Canterbury am journey and several trips on the 613/614 Canterbury- Deal and 603 Canterbury - Faversham when the Deal outstation decker workings transferred to Thanet in 1999 when Deal closed.

Rotas were kept simple:

Big Bus Thanet: The main rota covering all double deck workings on the main 8/88/8/99 group.

Compass Rota: The EU reg rota. Drivers on this worked the Kent Compass routes and X81.

Minibus: Drivers worked the minibus routes. Unusually though this was the dead man's shoes rota at Thanet, as even though it paid minibus rates and endured all day in Merc 709s, the drivers didn't work evenings or Sundays.

That is pretty much my memory of being there around that time, and a good time it was too. Interesting trivia, the 101/201 were the first East Kent routes to see low floor operation when the first Dart SLFs arrived in summer 1998.

OptareOlympus said:

As someone who worked at Thanet depot in the late 90s/early 00s, I can throw some light on some of the mystery around the decline of Stagecoach in the area.

The entire economic and social demographic landscape of Thanet has shifted way beyond a level that could ever have been predicted 25 years ago. But to understand today's network, requires an understanding of the historic behavioural lifestyle and travel patterns of residents.

The network and indeed economy is now centred on Westwood Cross. This didn't exist prior to 2005, when the area was a couple of supermarkets (both no longer there) and a scattering of legacy factories. Westwood Cross gets its name from the Pearce Signs Crossroads that stood there before the current roundabout replaced them in the mid 90s.

Thanet residents were highly insular and lived by long entrenched routines. Newington had 8 bph around y2k because around 95% of residents only ever went into Ramsgate. Dane Valley and Garlinge residents went to Margate in the same way. These services were heavily used by a generation of non driving pensioners who happily paid their half fare returns into their respective towns. This cohort has now been replaced by SUV driving boomers who would never consider using a bus unless its an open top ride for free on their otherwise unused ENCTS pass whilst on holiday.

Ramsgate and Margate have in effect now ceased to exist as town centres. They are no longer drivers of bus traffic.

Minnis Bay was always a loss maker which was only served because it required no additional resources in the days of the 8/88/9/99 ten minute headway original Island circular network. And again, demo wise, it is now stuffed with wealthy boomers, second home owners and air bnb lets. No tangible bus market there either anymore.

The 9 (in current form, not to be confused with the pre 2004 9/99 Minnis Bay - Margate- Ramsgate-Westwood- Margate high frequency circular) is a leftover from the former X81 limited stop Broadstairs- Ramsgate- Canterbury adults only, low fares express introduced during the 1994 rail strikes. This was a heavily used service in the peaks having a competitive with rail journey time of 40 mins (yes 40) from Ramsgate to Canterbury stopping only at Sturry en route. Daytimes were never overly heavily loaded. No surprise it now at the level it is now. The Minster and Monkton section was served by local minibus routes (42/51/39 IIRC) into Ramsgate and Margate.

Looking at the decline of the original towns, the influx of incomers (many likely remote 'workers'), rapidly increasing car owning boomer cohort coupled with endless traffic calming measures, 20 mph zones and traffic light phasing all contributing to traffic congestion across the island, its no great surprise that what was once a competitive battlefield for bus wars has now been reduced to what appears to be a skeletal network on borrowed time.

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A very good summary of how the place has evolved. Buses essentially serve trunk routes on trunk roads with the odd route branching off. There are really only two traditional high streets now. Broadstairs, just about hanging on and, slightly oddly I always think, Birchington. Interestingly both have terrible bus connections to WWX even though in the case of the former it's literally just up the road.

There are some signs of life in Ramsgate and Margate now, but losing nearly all the banks (Ramsgate down to 2 now, I think) and some less obvious but important shops (Rook's for example) has had nearly as much impact as the utterly misguided decision to allow the awful collection of big sheds that is Westwood Cross, which itself has lost a fair few of its marque names for various reasons.

DP

Major changes coming to Guildford Friary Bus station from 01/09/2026.
The stops in Commercial road are removed as part of the new North Street developments.
Some buses are now departing from North street (those to the east via London & Epsom roads) and also on the other side of shopping centre on Onslow street, services to the west (Farnham road).