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Ghost drivers - Fatal crash on A66

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WelshBluebird

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Similarly I don't think it should be mitigation to punishment for a driving ban if your job involves driving. If it does you need to be all the more careful
Absolutely. If your job involves driving we should we expecting stricter standards if anything! It always blows my mind how taxi drivers can be some of the worst drivers on the road. Professional drivers should be the best drivers not some of the worst!
 
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Yew

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Not disagreeing with that but just as an FYI despite the tabloid driven hysteria about TikTok video
I feel it's important to remember that newspapers are not unbaised in their views of social media - lets of the advertising money that once supported many papers now gets spent on social media advertising. Don't get me wrong, there is cetainly a lot of criticism that can legitimately be made of social media platforms - but lets not pretend that newspapers don't have a vested interest.
 

Lewisham2221

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Apparently, contrary to popular belief, 'Over the past thirty years, both violent crime and property crime have fallen by some 80 per cent in England and Wales - a fact also seen in other part of the UK and across Europe', according to Mark Easton on the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0030c2y. I don't know whether that's 'crime' or 'reported crime'. 'Hanging's too good for them'? Time was when 'hardnuts' might have had a place in the Armed Forces, but they're not wanted there- where intelligence is needed. No English and Maths GCSE's- no chance.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a slight rise in crimes going unreported - due to a "what's the point of reporting it?" mentality, but overall I can well believe that violent and property crimes have fallen. You don't really here of people getting mugged and and things like that anywhere near as much as in the 90s, for example. The perception of more crime probably comes from violent crimes tending to be much more violent, coupled with the social media effect of hearing about crimes in other parts of the country that wouldn't have made the national news, and more people discussing those crimes online.

You lose your individuality, freedom and privacy. You become a number and do as you are told, not as you want. You eat what you're given, not what you fancy.

That sort of thing.
I do wonder if our prison system has found itself in an ineffective middle ground? Not harsh enough to be as effective as a deterrent, whilst also not being able to effectively rehabilitate offenders?
 

Egg Centric

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Absolutely. If your job involves driving we should we expecting stricter standards if anything! It always blows my mind how taxi drivers can be some of the worst drivers on the road. Professional drivers should be the best drivers not some of the worst!
One of the reasons I don't like buses is the vast majority of the drivers - while driving perfectly safely and legally - don't seem to be able to drive smoothly at all, ie they have a very high "jerk".

And it's not that it's impossible to drive a bus smoothly (it may be more difficult than a car, idk). I remember at university for example there were about 10 drivers who did a particular bus and one of them was godlike in his smoothness while the others were fine to rubbish.

This is a similar ratio to typical car drivers in my experience (if you're some random person giving me a lift I couldn't actually care less how you drive even if I'm silently judging you), and not much worse than taxi drivers. But why not have pride in your job? Anyone with the spatial awareness to be throwing a bus around can drive smoothly if they want to.
 

JamieL

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It also has some of the harshest anti-drugs laws in the world yet drug abuse there is rising, and rapidly, albeit from a lower base.

Singapore, though, is an example of a place where- by and large- everyone who is a citizen there has something to gain by behaving and something to lose by going down the criminal route. It's not all stick, there's a lot of carrot in Singapore- it is a very wealthy city.

Also helps that it's a dictatorship.
There is a lot of carrot here, what we are missing is the stick.
 

najaB

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Sure but if somebody persistently drives against a disqualification or under the influence then they are a danger to other road users, including pedestrians, children, cyclists, car drivers, etc.

Somebody who is caught drink driving in 2021, 2025, and 2026 clearly has no respect for the law, and a disqualification will likely do little to prevent their reoffending. They are a danger to the public.
The problem is, how practically to stop them from driving? Cut their legs off?
 

Brightonboy

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If the military gave people a solid grounding in life then the rates of drink and drug abuse, mental health problems, homelessness, and other serious problems wouldn't be significantly higher among the ex-forces population than in the wider civilian population. Somewhere between 5% and 10% of all homeless UK nationals are ex-forces, and this is improving only due to the hard work of the likes of SSAFA.
However, the Army, in particular, have a track record of taking in youngsters from 'difficult' backgrounds and giving them training and a structured, ordered lifestyle.

Often that has good outcomes and those individuals leave the army with a whole new mindset, discipline and purpose leading to good future lives. Some, however, either do not respond to the Army's discipline at all and are invited to go elsewhere while others survive whilst in the structured environment but, once their time is up, are unable to cope without others to give them the structures.

The stresses caused by combat do not help matters in some cases, especially when exacerbated by deficiencies in mental health 'aftercare' once out of the Army.
 

styles

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The problem is, how practically to stop them from driving? Cut their legs off?
As with any other criminal who poses a danger to the public, this is where a custodial sentence comes in.

You can drive without legs in a specially adapted vehicle anyway :)
 

styles

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But are you going to lock them up, at great ongoing cost, forever?
No. I support reforming our prisons to focus on rehabilitation. If somebody is done for drink driving 3 times in 5 years then they need to be in custody to protect the public but they also need alcohol rehabilitation. Sometimes that can be done in a prison setting, sometimes it will require attending a dedicated rehab facility, sometimes it can be managed with an NHS-provided programme.

I believe people are capable of being rehabilitated, but I don't believe we should so often let drivers off because their manslaughter was done in a car and the CPS/PF know that it's easier to get a death by dangerous driving conviction than an unlawful act manslaughter one.
 

najaB

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I believe people are capable of being rehabilitated, but I don't believe we should so often let drivers off because their manslaughter was done in a car and the CPS/PF know that it's easier to get a death by dangerous driving conviction than an unlawful act manslaughter one.
That's a fair assessment of the situation.
 

JamieL

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Ah yes, the "carrot" of barely being able to make ends meet working a dead-end warehouse job.
The carrot of having free access to health provision far beyond what they could ever afford if they were paying, a benefits/welfare system that allows them to choose not to work, a free education system for their children and a society with huge consumer choice. Including choice to make appropriate life decisions to better oneself.
 

Killingworth

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I'm afraid that while we talk and wring our hands the lawless elements continue their feuds. The arson attack in Grangetown in which 2 died seems to have at least a loose connection with those who died on the A66. 2 have been arrested.

About 1 am this morning a house in not so far away Steel Crescent, Southbank is reported to have been rammed. Whether connected or not the police have their hands full.

See; https://www.facebook.com/share/p/19CSjcPsYw/
 
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JohnofWessex

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May I make a few suggestions

1. Treat being at risk of becoming involved in crime a child protection issue with some 'assertive' social work. Clearly the idea that children can be born to men who have been to prison and whose grandfathers have been to prison without some sort of state intervention is ridiculous. In the same way that there are some women who are never allowed to keep their children should we do the same with men?

2. Think about where we apply our enforcement efforts. What about HMRC in particular, We may not be able to demonstrate that Scrote Junior was involved in offending but that flash car/trainers/cash in the house clearly were not acquired legally so we are having it. Similarly traffic enforcement will keep on taking untaxed/insured etc cars off the street and finding drugs/weapons then Scrote Junior will be faced with effectively a significant 'taxation' and disruption of whatever he is up to.

3. Why not make greater use of secure hospitals rather than prison? Offenders dont like being 'nutted off' hospital is about change and no change no release.

4. It is estimated that there are about 100000 'prolific' offenders in the UK who are responsible for the bulk of crime, why cant they be targeted and neutralised through hospitalisation?

5. Life long post release restrictions eg requirements to register address, bank accounts, vehicles, restrictions on where you can go etc
 
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BrianW

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I'm afraid that while we talk and wring our hands the lawless elements continue their feuds. The arson attack in Grangetown in which 2 died seems to have at least a loose connection with those who died on the A66. 2 have been arrested.

About 1 am this morning a house in not so far away Steel Crescent, Southbank is reported to have been rammed. Whether connected or not the police have their hands full.

See; https://www.facebook.com/share/p/19CSjcPsYw/

I recalled (Post #80 something?) having been invited to submit a proposal for the South Bank area, and noted that Keith Hellawell was Chief Constable at Cleveland Police. Wikipedia was not around that time (nor ubiquitous IT or Socal Media etc);so his entry there is relatively light on his 'policing'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Hellawell. He was a controversial character and went on to be New Labour's 'Drug Czar'. He was very 'present' in our deliberations. I recall houses burnt out then! Either his policies didn't work then or haven't worked since. 'Tough on the causes of crime'?

While 'reminiscing' (!), as a student of Architecture in the 1970s we visited the Cummins Diesel factory, built with rusted Cor-Ten Steel; are they still going? Apprenticeships? Jobs?? Going/ gone electric ...? Steel,no more. ICI no more.
 

Tetchytyke

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The carrot of having free access to health provision far beyond what they could ever afford if they were paying, a benefits/welfare system that allows them to choose not to work, a free education system for their children and a society with huge consumer choice.
*sigh*

The fact that you regard the basic hallmarks of a civilised society as "carrots" says everything we need to know here.

Ah yes, the "carrot" of barely being able to make ends meet working a dead-end warehouse job.
Bingo.

If you play by the rules and work really really hard you might, one day, get to be a team leader on the night shift at an Amazon warehouse on the outskirts of Stockton.

Or you can get in with the bad boys in the local drug gang, earn more money, get the flashy car, and get the girls with the money and the car.

I wonder what choice a teenage boy with few other options in life might make...
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder what choice a teenage boy with few other options in life might make...

That would rather depend on what morals they have. And to be fair two minimum wages can give you a decent (if a bit basic) life somewhere really cheap like that where you can get a terraced house for about 60K.

I think, like discussions of terrorism, what you say explains it but cannot justify it.
 

JamieL

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*sigh*

The fact that you regard the basic hallmarks of a civilised society as "carrots" says everything we need to know here.


Bingo.

If you play by the rules and work really really hard you might, one day, get to be a team leader on the night shift at an Amazon warehouse on the outskirts of Stockton.

Or you can get in with the bad boys in the local drug gang, earn more money, get the flashy car, and get the girls with the money and the car.

I wonder what choice a teenage boy with few other options in life might make...
Or you join the Army, learn a trade, buy a house, leave, start a business and make a great future for yourself and your family. Everyone has choice. Ultimately, everyone finds their level.
 

Tetchytyke

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I think, like discussions of terrorism, what you say explains it but cannot justify it.
Absolutely, there is no justification for the behaviour.

But if you don't deal with the reasons behind the behaviour then the behaviour will never change.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Or you join the Army, learn a trade
We've been through this earlier, do keep up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

start a business and make a great future for yourself
Drug dealing is a business. They're great entrepreneurs.

Or is that not quite what you meant?
 
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I wonder how long it will take the 'parents' of Mummy's little darlings to discover the GoFundMe donations and see their way to getting some "compensation" from the families of the officers for the 'tragic and undeserved' taking of their precious little angels????
 

Tetchytyke

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I think the suggestion was most probably a business operating with the law.
Yes, I was being flippant, but on a more serious level, what other types of business are you starting in a town with no money? Where are you getting your capital from? Where are you getting your customers from? Where are you getting your profit from?

And where are you getting money from whilst you build your business? Jamie doesn't agree with benefits anyway, so he's really not going to agree with giving people benefits to start up a company.

If it was easy everyone would do it. 60% of businesses fail within three years. Half of all company insolvencies are startups.
 

GusB

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Ah, it's nice to see that Victorian attitudes are alive and well in the 21st century.

The carrot of having free access to health provision far beyond what they could ever afford if they were paying, a benefits/welfare system that allows them to choose not to work, a free education system for their children and a society with huge consumer choice. Including choice to make appropriate life decisions to better oneself.
"Better oneself". Bingo!

It seems that no matter how many times you are provided with the the facts, you bring up the tired old nonsense that it's a choice to live on benefits. It isn't. Please do some proper research and stay away from the Daily Mail.

That would rather depend on what morals they have. And to be fair two minimum wages can give you a decent (if a bit basic) life somewhere really cheap like that where you can get a terraced house for about 60K.
You're making the assumption that someone is working full time. Minimum wage jobs are quite often part time and while people may be able to earn more by regularly working more than their contracted hours, you're not going to get a mortgage if your contract is only 15 hours a week. If you're on zero hours or working in the "gig economy", forget it.

You're out of touch, I'm afraid.

Or you join the Army, learn a trade, buy a house, leave, start a business and make a great future for yourself and your family. Everyone has choice. Ultimately, everyone finds their level.
Isn't it easy to sit there and judge others when you've had a good education and enjoy a comfortable income? When you're at the lower end of the income spectrum those "choices" become rather limited. Learning a trade means getting an apprenticeship, buying a house needs a steady job and a deposit and starting a business also needs some startup capital. Going to college or university costs money too and for some the idea of getting into horrendous amounts of debt is simply unpalatable when there's not much prospect of a decent job afterwards.

Before anyone invokes the spirit of Norman Tebbit and suggests that people should just get on their bikes, well it costs money to relocate too; you need a deposit and first month's rent up front, a sum of money that's difficult to put together if you are already working, let alone being on the dole.
 

Bantamzen

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Or you join the Army, learn a trade, buy a house, leave, start a business and make a great future for yourself and your family. Everyone has choice. Ultimately, everyone finds their level.
Easy as that eh? Why don't people just follow this simple premise, and get rich? It must be because they are lazy.... Or maybe it's because in many parts of the country those opportunities are fewer and further between, if they exist at all?

This sounds a lot like the "American Dream". You know study hard, work hard, get a job, buy a big house with a nice white picket fence, and a big car to drive into the office every day in the city. Why doesn't everyone do this, it's easy right? Well to put it simply because of the "American Dream". There isn't room in any capitalist economy for everyone to be a successful businessperson, or have a high paid job in the city. In many places there isn't a even big city with multi-national company offices to aspire to, and nowhere near enough money in the local economies to support new businesses. Many people, through no fault of their own, don't have the same access to the career ladder that others do. They are the ones fighting over the handful of jobs at the local Tesco, or Amazon warehouse. And for the rest there's the choice of living on the breadline through benefits (or many of the low paid jobs), or taking to crime to try and exist beyond poverty illegally.

But hey, maybe they should move to where the jobs are right, is often the response. The only problem being that moving can be expensive, especially when moving to more affluent areas, and if you haven't got the money in the first place then you are trapped in a low income economy. I travel around quite a lot of the country through work and leisure, and you can see in many places that there simply aren't the opportunities that there are in other places. In many towns and cities even big chains struggle to keep open, because there simply isn't the money in the area to keep them profitable. Hell in a town I used to live close to Wetherspoons closed down because they couldn't make it work! Wetherspoons, the definition of a low economy business, couldn't sell enough cheap beer to the local population to keep going.

The solution is both simple, and horribly complex. Move to spread the wealth, or at least the opportunities to move into careers that can generate wealth. But that means moving many business away from the big cities, with their proliferation of trendy, overpriced coffee shops and smashed burgers into the poorer areas of the country where the trendiest lunch item is the Sausage, Beans & Cheese bake from Greggs. But these businesses don't want that, they want all the trimmings of the affluent areas to demonstrate their success. And so much of the country is doomed to remain in an ever decreasing economic outlook, which will drive more anti-social behaviour, drug abuse and crime. Because for a lot of people, there simply isn't anything else to do...
 

Broucek

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I'm struggling with this thread. It must be desparately hard to thrive in an economically depressed region, particularly if you've had a less-than-good upbringing. But none of that excuses driving the wrong way down a dual carriageway, sorry!
 
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