Unpopular opinion: IETs are perfectly fine, for the most part.

irish_rail · Monday at 22:06

Bald Rick said:
Most don’t notice. Or if they do, not enough to pass any comment.

Sorry, that's completely inaccurate (the GWR stuff anyhow).
I often overhear complaints whilst travelling about the poor quality seating. Many people I know (with no railway interest other than being punters) always comment on the seats, and especially the metal bar issue.
Even Mark Hopwood was forced to defend them on Radio Cornwall, which proves it is very much "normals" who are finding the seating problematic on GWR at least.

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rangersac · Monday at 22:54

Fix the seats and 95% of the complaints will go away. I've travelled on the 801s with LNER, 802s with TPE and 810s with EMR. General ambience is good being light and airy and the large overhead bins are a definite plus. The seats on the 810s are a noticeable upgrade on the 801/2s which as a relatively tall person (188cm) I find too upright and give me a numb backside for journeys of more than a couple of hours. Ride quality wise they are crap though. Classes 158, 175, 185, 221/2, 390, and the Mk3/4s they replaced are all superior in my book, but I accept that most passengers won't really care about that too much.

Johnnie2Sheds · Monday at 23:01

Can I just say I like them too. And the Avanti versions. There, I'm not always moaning on here.

Bletchleyite · Monday at 23:05

mmh said:
the windows feel rather high up in conjunction with a low feeling floor (but the Mk3 carriage also had this to a slightly esser extent)

This is only true of the end vehicles. The floor is about 6" higher on the intermediates (all vehicles in an 810) to accommodate the diesel engines. The downside of this is that there is a step up inside the doors, a bit European like in a way.

stevieinselby · Tuesday at 00:00

My long-distance travel is mostly on Hull Trains, where the 802s are definitely a big upgrade on the old 180s from a passenger point of view (not necessarily an improvement on the 222s from before that, although obviously at only 4 carriages they were not big enough for the route). I wouldn't say the seats are super comfortable, but on journeys of ~2 hours I've never found them particularly uncomfortable either. Whether I would feel the same on a longer journey, it's hard to say.

35B said:
The ride is appalling, and I have seen a number of people looking alarmed at bogie hunting on plain line.

For the most part, I find the ride to be absolutely fine, but I completely agree that when the bogies start hunting it gets very rough and as a passenger feels very worrying!
Is hunting connected to the suspension, or is it more to do with the wheel profile? I vaguely know what happens but I'm not so sure what defect or inadequacy makes it more likely, or what mitigation can prevent it.

Mikey C · Tuesday at 00:44

The seats on the "true" IETs (i.e. not including the Avanti and EMR ones) are dreadful. A "bare minimum" seat in terms of comfort to start with, but one which has also worn really badly. That the bar could be felt on the GWR and LNER units within such a short period of time suggests they aren't fit for purpose.

The ride isn't great, though better than the dreadful ride on all the CAF stock, including the Mk 5s and 397s.

The sliding door on the regular toilets is rather stiff.

Legroom is good. Mechanically there are impressive, much quieter than older DMUs in diesel mode.

185143 · Tuesday at 00:45

I agree entirely. I'm a big fan of IETs.

The seats are entirely subjective, I get why people don't like them. I certainly won't say they're the best seats out there because they certainly aren't. But they don't deserve the hate they get.

I do wonder if a lot of it is from people who like to slouch and sit it all sorts of weird and wonderful positions on trains? Particularly involving feet being anywhere other than the floor, and the base of the spine/a**e being at least close to the back of the seat?

But I've probably mentioned before, I've done Aberdeen-London-Penzance all in standard, in one go. And aside from spending most of the Southbound journey still feeling sick after an extremely rough NorthLink crossing, it was absolutely fine. I do use them a fair bit (TPE and LNER examples mainly) and genuinely enjoy travelling on them. Only been on the one 810, but it seemed a massive upgrade over the 222s in just about every way. Admittedly that was launch day... they've not been without their issues since as we all know!

styles · Tuesday at 07:21

I don't hate the IETs but I do have a couple of gripes.

One is the seats are not really that comfortable, but I usually sit weirdly due to disabilities so I'm rarely happy with public transport seats.

The other is the tables. The main tables have no grip to them so if you've got a can of juice it is prone to sliding around. The smaller gold down and pull out tables are also not grippy and on most services aren't fitted with cup holders either.

Other than that I think they're fine. They look smart on the whole.

Bald Rick · Tuesday at 08:14

irish_rail said:
Sorry, that's completely inaccurate (the GWR stuff anyhow).
I often overhear complaints whilst travelling about the poor quality seating. Many people I know (with no railway interest other than being punters) always comment on the seats, and especially the metal bar issue.
Even Mark Hopwood was forced to defend them on Radio Cornwall, which proves it is very much "normals" who are finding the seating problematic on GWR at least.

Ok fair enough.

I’ve never heard any passengers complain about the seats, in hundreds of journeys although as I say that is more on the ECML and WCML than GWR. I also know lots of people who use them on GWR regularly, mostly non- railway people, and none of them have ever mentoned either.

I also suggest that out of the couple of hundred thousand journeys made on them daily, the number who notice any seat issues is a rather small proortion, and the number who actually complain much smaller still.

AlterEgo · Tuesday at 08:19

To add a data point, last year a friend of mine (normie, 40s, female) had to do her regular work trip to Leeds but wasn't on her usual Azuma train but on a 225 instead. She then asked me when LNER got brand-new trains with big leather seats in first class (!!)

Most normies haven't a clue.

35B · Tuesday at 08:37

AlterEgo said:
To add a data point, last year a friend of mine (normie, 40s, female) had to do her regular work trip to Leeds but wasn't on her usual Azuma train but on a 225 instead. She then asked me when LNER got brand-new trains with big leather seats in first class (!!)

Most normies haven't a clue.

And I’ve heard similar. “Normies” know little, but those reactions speak volumes for the perception of quality

Bletchleyite · Tuesday at 08:42

185143 said:
I do wonder if a lot of it is from people who like to slouch and sit it all sorts of weird and wonderful positions on trains? Particularly involving feet being anywhere other than the floor, and the base of the spine/a**e being at least close to the back of the seat?

Nope. Indeed the only way for me to sit comfortably on a particularly badly collapsed one is to slouch so my backside is on the bar rather than it cutting into the back of my thigh.

It's weight, the heavier you are the more you will compress the too-thin base.

birchesgreen · Tuesday at 08:54

I find IETs (though only been on the GWR variety) perfectly adequate, though i did have misgivings before i went on one as some people on here seemed to imply it would be like travelling through the gates of hell.

I've only been on for journeys of about 45 mins or less though, maybe a full 2-3 hour trek would be different.

Bletchleyite · Tuesday at 09:05

birchesgreen said:
I find IETs (though only been on the GWR variety) perfectly adequate, though i did have misgivings before i went on one as some people on here seemed to imply it would be like travelling through the gates of hell.

I've only been on for journeys of about 45 mins or less though, maybe a full 2-3 hour trek would be different.

I've done plenty of 4-5 hour trips on them. The only issues I find really are the seats and the electrical whine you get in some vehicles when on 25kV (but not on diesel). For some reason Lumo's seem to be worst for the latter, but it may be because the specific shape and layout of the seats make it echo more.

I would make the odd tweak e.g. all door pocket spaces should contain a luggage rack, it's a bad seat and there's not quite enough luggage space.

The 810 has a more comfortable look but has less legroom and fewer tables. And of course is highly unreliable.

I think I'd say the 807 is my favourite of them. Better seat design than the originals but still lots of space.

Mogz · Tuesday at 09:12

Put in the Avanti seats and seating layout and you have a winning combination with the IETs IMHO.

I’d love to see them operating CrossCountry services (preferably with 9 coaches).

Bi mode would also eliminate using diesel under the wires.

A tri-mode with third-rail shoes would also eliminate diesel running on the Southern between Basingstoke and Bournemouth.

We can but dream…

stuu · Tuesday at 09:42

They (GWR IETs) are the only train that I have ever heard set off a big discussion across the office about, specifically the seating. I have barely heard trains mentioned at any other time, apart from "my train was late" or whatever. Obviously anecdotal, but I have also overheard plenty of complaints on board to the TM as well. Never heard anything like that on another train

Harpo · Tuesday at 10:08

As an enthusiast I loathed HST introduction as the beginning of the end of loco-haul trains but, as a commuter, found their ride quality, environment and comfort absolutely superb. The Mk4s heightened the feeling of quality. Nothing in the UK since, has bettered them for ride quality and comfort bar those fabulous FC seats in the MML 170s.

Fast forward to 2026 and I decided to do an S&C diversion with an Avanti IET in first class. I was shocked at how poor it was with a freezing cold environment (staff themselves said they dislike them because of the cold), and those thin rock hard seat squabs felt like air travel, where I limit the maximum flight length for sheer endurance.

IET’s are proof of how well the railway has done in reducing customer expectations.

Bletchleyite · Tuesday at 10:17

Harpo said:
Fast forward to 2026 and I decided to do an S&C diversion with an Avanti IET in first class. I was shocked at how poor it was with a freezing cold environment (staff themselves said they dislike them because of the cold), and those thin rock hard seat squabs felt like air travel, where I limit the maximum flight length for sheer endurance.

I love the highly effective aircon. Someone who's cold can put a jumper or coat on, I can't strip off

Harpo said:
IET’s are proof of how well the railway has done in reducing customer expectations.

I'd say improving them. The legroom for instance is better than anything BR ever built.

bramling · Tuesday at 10:24

Bletchleyite said:
I love the highly effective aircon. Someone who's cold can put a jumper or coat on, I can't strip off

I'd say improving them. The legroom for instance is better than anything BR ever built.

I think they’d be okay if the interior wasn’t so sterile and the seats more comfortable. First in particular on the GWT and LNER units is one of the most depressing travelling atmospheres that has ever been created, almost worse than the class 700.

What I think will be a bigger issue with the trains is that their reliability doesn’t seem to be as good as hoped for, and the debilitating nature of the Hitachi contractual regime. This doesn’t bode well for the future.

Bletchleyite · Tuesday at 10:33

bramling said:
I think they’d be okay if the interior wasn’t so sterile and the seats more comfortable. First in particular on the GWT and LNER units is one of the most depressing travelling atmospheres that has ever been created, almost worse than the class 700.

I don't think the 1st seats are particularly premium, but I do think the rich red colour scheme in the LNER sets gives it a premium feel, as opposed to the dull grey and bus-grab-pole lime green of the GWR ones. The blues in Hull, TPE, Lumo and Avanti's sets is sort of in the middle. A lot of people think the LNER ones are more comfortable when they're identical, which really does highlight how powerful psychology can be.

I really hope GBR thinks of this when they choose the interior scheme. You can massively change the feel with colour and texture and it costs next to nothing.

bramling said:
What I think will be a bigger issue with the trains is that their reliability doesn’t seem to be as good as hoped for, and the debilitating nature of the Hitachi contractual regime. This doesn’t bode well for the future.

There's certainly that. Of course some (802, 805, 807, 810) haven't been purchased via the IET contract.

waveyswirley · Tuesday at 12:21

If I'm riding an IET it's usually on the TPE Liverpool - Manchester Chat Moss route or an Avanti service to London. I also recently spent a fair amount of time on an 802 travelling from Liverpool to Newcastle and back twice in two weeks.

The Avanti units really are noticeably better. Jury's out on whether they're better than Pendolinos - it depends how much you value a light airy carriage vs the "cosier" Pendo carriage, tilting vs non-tilting, etc. But I have basically no issues with them.

The TPE ones are inferior. If you have a seat booked, like I did on my longer trips, it's a real roulette whether or not you're going to be subjected to a particularly uncomfortable metal bar. Other than the seat though I really have no issues - I mustn't take much notice of ride quality compared to other folks. Combined with TPE's 2tph fast service from Liverpool-Manchester most of the day they're a great option for travelling between the cities that "just works," and the bi-mode technology is rather neat too.

Bletchleyite · Tuesday at 13:36

waveyswirley said:
The Avanti units really are noticeably better. Jury's out on whether they're better than Pendolinos - it depends how much you value a light airy carriage vs the "cosier" Pendo carriage, tilting vs non-tilting, etc. But I have basically no issues with them.

I think they're better than Pendolinos due to the spaciousness, bigger windows and better luggage provision. Yes, they're slightly slower, but it's not that significant.

I did for years wonder what the WCML would have looked like if a cheaper upgrade had been done and something like a Class 444 was used at 110mph - a "cheap capacity" scenario rather than a "premium fast" one. I guess we've sort of got the opportunity to see that now.

waveyswirley said:
The TPE ones are inferior. If you have a seat booked, like I did on my longer trips, it's a real roulette whether or not you're going to be subjected to a particularly uncomfortable metal bar. Other than the seat though I really have no issues - I mustn't take much notice of ride quality compared to other folks. Combined with TPE's 2tph fast service from Liverpool-Manchester most of the day they're a great option for travelling between the cities that "just works," and the bi-mode technology is rather neat too.

They're OK on TPE but end doors aren't ideal for their frequent stops and high standing loads. I would expect once the wires are up something more like Class 730s will replace them, though for the ECML runs it'd need to be 125mph capable. I guess the Javelin units are sort of that compromise.

185143 · Tuesday at 15:17

Bletchleyite said:
Nope. Indeed the only way for me to sit comfortably on a particularly badly collapsed one is to slouch so my backside is on the bar rather than it cutting into the back of my thigh.

It's weight, the heavier you are the more you will compress the too-thin base.

I can assure you I've got no shortage of that!

That can't be all it is.

AndrewP · Tuesday at 16:38

I really like them too and think overall they are much better than the 225s they replaced on LNER - still miss the 125s though - and are fine on Trans Pennine too.

The seats in standard especially could do with more padding on the base cushion but they are not bad overall and I have never experienced the metal bar issue. Different or improved seats would change them from good to excellent in my view

EYFanatic · Tuesday at 19:53

AlterEgo said:
To add a data point, last year a friend of mine (normie, 40s, female) had to do her regular work trip to Leeds but wasn't on her usual Azuma train but on a 225 instead. She then asked me when LNER got brand-new trains with big leather seats in first class (!!)

Most normies haven't a clue.

Reminds me of that time a Western rescued an FGW HST in the late 90s/early 00s and there was a BTP officer on the platform who asked a local enthusiast if the Western was a new loco coming out... The story is in, I think, an edition of either Traction or RAIL though which I can not recall off hand

irish_rail · Tuesday at 20:44

185143 said:
I can assure you I've got no shortage of that!

That can't be all it is.

And yet I have a normal BMI, not overweight, and find the metal bar highly noticeable and annoying, so not so sure the idea that the heavier you are the more you notice it rings true.

Zomboid · Wednesday at 19:57

irish_rail said:
And yet I have a normal BMI, not overweight, and find the metal bar highly noticeable and annoying, so not so sure the idea that the heavier you are the more you notice it rings true.

It's all anecdotal, I am fairly tall and in the normal BMI range and didn't recall ever feeling this metal bar.

There are several hundred seats on ever 80x, and they'll be in various states of repair by now...

TT-ONR-NRN · Wednesday at 20:29

rangersac said:
Fix the seats and 95% of the complaints will go away. I've travelled on the 801s with LNER, 802s with TPE and 810s with EMR. General ambience is good being light and airy and the large overhead bins are a definite plus. The seats on the 810s are a noticeable upgrade on the 801/2s which as a relatively tall person (188cm) I find too upright and give me a numb backside for journeys of more than a couple of hours. Ride quality wise they are crap though. Classes 158, 175, 185, 221/2, 390, and the Mk3/4s they replaced are all superior in my book, but I accept that most passengers won't really care about that too much.

Mmm, the 805s and 807s have the same seats as a 390, but they just have an undeniably bland and boring feel, I think. Like, it's fine, but so bright and with so much bland white or beige walls. I think since the refurbishment the 390 standard class interior is really impressive compared to the 805/807 standard class which is just meh.

Bletchleyite · Wednesday at 20:31

TT-ONR-NRN said:
Mmm, the 805s and 807s have the same seats as a 390, but they just have an undeniably bland and boring feel, I think. Like, it's fine, but so bright and with so much bland white or beige walls.

I do think the reservation strip being beige does give the Avanti units a less vibrant look than the LNER ones. Sticking over it with Avanti dark green/blue would actually add to the ambiance quite well.

TT-ONR-NRN · Wednesday at 20:35

Bletchleyite said:
I do think the reservation strip being beige does give the Avanti units a less vibrant look than the LNER ones. Sticking over it with Avanti dark green/blue would actually add to the ambiance quite well.

I agree. That, the walls where the interior doors and PIS being a different colour a la EMR 810s, and dimmer lighting would help.

Unpopular opinion: IETs are perfectly fine, for the most part.

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