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The cost of the welfare state - challenges posed and solutions

Bald Rick

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28 Sep 2010
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35,588
I'm still not sure that I've made my question clear

Well I thought I understood it, but given your last answer, I‘m now not sure I have understood you, or perhaps vice versa.


is the employer subsidy for the "older" pension greater and is differential pay based upon pension permitted by the inion?

That depends what you mean by “employer subsidy”. If you mean “employer’s contributions” then yes they are higher for the older pension schemes, but not much. But that has no impact on what individuals get paid.

I don’t understand what yiu mean by differential pay being ‘permitted’ by the unions. In the signalling grades, all signallers at Grade “x” get paid the same. Again, for clarity, what their pension contributions are is completely irrelevant to it.

If that's the case, then the newer workers are to an extent subsidising the older ones because they are getting less attractive headline future rises

Not so. Individual’s Pension contributions are not taken into account in pay discussions. In fact Idoubt whether any HR / Finance manager would know what particualr section of the pension scheme any individual is in.



What do / did you do instead (if not too outing)?

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Egg Centric

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Well I thought I understood it, but given your last answer, I‘m now not sure I have understood you, or perhaps vice versa.




That depends what you mean by “employer subsidy”. If you mean “employer’s contributions” then yes they are higher for the older pension schemes, but not much. But that has no impact on what individuals get paid.

I don’t understand what yiu mean by differential pay being ‘permitted’ by the unions. In the signalling grades, all signallers at Grade “x” get paid the same. Again, for clarity, what their pension contributions are is completely irrelevant to it.



Not so. Individual’s Pension contributions are not taken into account in pay discussions. In fact Idoubt whether any HR / Finance manager would know what particualr section of the pension scheme any individual is in.

At an individual level, no. But surely when Network Rail make a 'global' offer of an average 3% uplift (or whatever) the finance team has worked out what this is going to cost, and in doing so they have taken into account the cost to the business not just of headline salary but also also their ongoing contributions to all the pension schemes.

If everyone were on the new pension scheme, they would have to contribute less to the pension schemes in cumulo and so perhaps they would be able to offer 3.5% instead. If everyone had been on the old pension scheme, they would have had to contribute more to the pension schemes so perhaps they would have been only able to offer 2.5%.

Whether the effect is 1% I've no idea, I'm just using round numbers.

In that sense younger workers are getting a less attractive offer than they would have done otherwise due to older workers getting a better deal, while the older workers are getting a more attractive offer than they would have done otherwise due to the younger workers getting a worse deal. This is the sense in which this subsidy exists.
 

Broucek

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13 Aug 2020
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UK
At an individual level, no. But surely when Network Rail make a 'global' offer of an average 3% uplift (or whatever) the finance team has worked out what this is going to cost, and in doing so they have taken into account the cost to the business not just of headline salary but also also their ongoing contributions to all the pension schemes.

If everyone were on the new pension scheme, they would have to contribute less to the pension schemes in cumulo and so perhaps they would be able to offer 3.5% instead. If everyone had been on the old pension scheme, they would have had to contribute more to the pension schemes so perhaps they would have been only able to offer 2.5%.

Whether the effect is 1% I've no idea, I'm just using round numbers.

In that sense younger workers are getting a less attractive offer than they would have done otherwise due to older workers getting a better deal, while the older workers are getting a more attractive offer than they would have done otherwise due to the younger workers getting a worse deal. This is the sense in which this subsidy exists.
UK occupational pensions have got worse as the old schemes were not affordable.

I'm not sure what else there is to say
 

Egg Centric

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UK occupational pensions have got worse as the old schemes were not affordable.

I'm not sure what else there is to say

Not a lot other than to recognise that some of the cost of that unaffordability is being passed on to those illegible for the schemes themselves in the form of lower wages than they would otherwise be getting - even if the schemes are fully funded.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,588
At an individual level, no. But surely when Network Rail make a 'global' offer of an average 3% uplift (or whatever) the finance team has worked out what this is going to cost, and in doing so they have taken into account the cost to the business not just of headline salary but also also their ongoing contributions to all the pension schemes.

If everyone were on the new pension scheme, they would have to contribute less to the pension schemes in cumulo and so perhaps they would be able to offer 3.5% instead. If everyone had been on the old pension scheme, they would have had to contribute more to the pension schemes so perhaps they would have been only able to offer 2.5%.

Whether the effect is 1% I've no idea, I'm just using round numbers.

In that sense younger workers are getting a less attractive offer than they would have done otherwise due to older workers getting a better deal, while the older workers are getting a more attractive offer than they would have done otherwise due to the younger workers getting a worse deal. This is the sense in which this subsidy exists.

Right I get you. The impact is small as there’s very few people left paying into the ‘oldest’ pension scheme - you will have 33 years continuous service for that. I suggest that the impact of the differences on pay negotiations / affordability is nil.
 

styles

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Gwynedd
I don't know about railways of course but I have known people to negotiate better pensions instead of pay rises. Employers I suspect quite like doing it, assuming no great administrative overhead, because they save on employer NI contributions. Some employers are happy to donate those savings back to the employee in their pension but plenty just pocket the change.

In fact because of things like the 60% tax trap I think this sort of negotiation is probably on the rise. If it's not greater pension contributions it's extra annual leave or a 4 day working week for the same salary etc.
 

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