How many CLIP trains does that make in service now, then? Is it 5? Or do I remember correctly that some of earliest ones to be finished were a prototype rather than the final design and are/were undergoing remedial works of some kind?
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1992 stock Refurbishment?
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Dstock7080
Established Member
Five are on the Central Line at depots.
The initial trains were returned for remedial work but are now included in the five.
two/three usually in service.
At this rate, by the time they've finished the last one, the first will need doing again!
Actually making a bit of progress then (albeit still painfully slowly)! Thank you for getting me up to speed, the project has been going on for so long I had lost track…
Snow1964
Established Member
Nothing that said they had to be done in London, weren't the Piccadilly line fleet upgrades done at Rosyth, because there were more skilled engineers available.
Lets be honest, someone must have decided to build and fit out an overhaul works, without a plan to train sufficient staff to skill level required to utilise it fully. More a lack of joined up thinking.
Dstock7080
Established Member
1967/72 Stock in Rosyth
1973 Stock Wakefield
Probably true and shows the attitudes of the various key senior managers at the time regarding in or out sourcing, relationship with original Supplier and "making things happen".
Note the skills shortage extends beyond Technicians/Engineers.
Note the skills shortage extends beyond Technicians/Engineers.
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D365
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Electrical and mechanical fitters are normally provided by recruitment firms these days. Most fitters typically come from marine or automotive backgrounds, as those industries have a more steady workstream, in contrast to the stop-start railway pipeline.
Consequentially, the few fitters in the industry who are available for work, competent and have substantial rolling stock experience are in very high demand.
LUL have a significant Apprenticeship and Training scheme that in theory helps (if they attract, develop & retain them when the pass out).
Some of the Maintenance Depots and departments seem to have done better than others WRT retention and resourcing the peaks and troughs of Heavy maintenance/project work.
Some of the Maintenance Depots and departments seem to have done better than others WRT retention and resourcing the peaks and troughs of Heavy maintenance/project work.
bramling
Veteran Member
This is a big problem at TFL. They act as though they are some coveted special employer, whereas the reality is that they are increasingly struggling to attract and retain fit-for-purpose staff. The corporate arrogance is frankly breathtaking.
Nym
Established Member
A lot of very skilled people have left TfL in the last 10 years thanks to various “transformation” schemes… “irritating” people over the last 15. But the continued arrogance and lack of foresight will keep resulting in unknown unknowns and lack of knowledge on the availability of competent labour
Was the 92 stock the first where TFL didn't have full design info and IPR? If so the options for the the redesign/integration of changes may have been limited.
Similar situation with the signalling.
Also note the issues with the project have apparently been at most stages to date where lessons to be learnt.
Also we should question management focus on the apparent current main constraints (Acton works processes and resources, train crewing)
Similar situation with the signalling.
Also note the issues with the project have apparently been at most stages to date where lessons to be learnt.
Also we should question management focus on the apparent current main constraints (Acton works processes and resources, train crewing)
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185143
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I can't be bothered trawling through 32 pages to find it, is there a list of trains which have been through the CLIP works, and also which cars are currently in works?
And do they have set diagrams?
And do they have set diagrams?
Nym
Established Member
They did, they went to 6 seperate labour provision companies, and then added together the numbers they got and said, "Look, we can get this many operatives available to work in London."
One may have wished to consider that an operative may be working for more than one of these labour provision companies.
And also may have wished to consider, the relatively low rates on offer by TfL might not be attractive, particularly as a large amount of other contracts requiring day-labour kicked off in the UK.
Then throw in the mix the other conditions that TfL doubtless needs and it's unlikely to work out. And yes, I mean TfL, not LUL, CLIP Labour was insisted on being TfL lead not LUL COO or LUL CoP lead.
Damn, done it again.
CLIP = Central Line Improvment Programme
COO = Chief Operating Office (Where trains and maintenance are done)
CoP = Capacity and Optimisation Portfolio / Programme (depending on when it was) (Sitting between Major Projects and COO).
TfL insisted on managing labour for the project as part of TfL Engineering for the project, and spinning up a fully separated team of Testers, Charge Hands and Labourers, rather than trying to morph the AC15 teams (Bakerloo Corrosion Repairs) or up-skill the TMU (Train Mods Unit) team who were working on D-Stock Rail Adhesion Train conversion and maintenance, 1962TS RAT maintenance, Battery Loco Life Extension and 750V works, and heavy repairs (Buffer Integrity Test Unit Rectification Work).
Because as ever, TfL knows best. (How's that Sub-Surface Resignalling now on it's 3rd attempt going?)
Not to mention the perpetual "need to go into production tomorrow" when the design is nowhere near ready mentallity.
The leading car numbers of CLIPed trains that are back in service are:
91001 - 91201 (first train back in passenger service) currently stopped.
91093 - 91109
91111 - 91263
91155 - 91331
91043 - 91079
Believed trains "in work":
91123 - 91347
91319 - 91339
91157 - 91295
Nym interesting view on the evolution of the CLIP project set up and organisation of Tfl and LUL Resources - not good for the ongoing use of that "model" for tackling work on other fleets (internally).
Agree that there is a continued Skills, Knowledge & Experience shortage in both Technical and Management aspects and poor plans for retention and/or development - hence the increasing use of outsourcing (eg on BLU, SFA)
91001 - 91201 (first train back in passenger service) currently stopped.
91093 - 91109
91111 - 91263
91155 - 91331
91043 - 91079
Believed trains "in work":
91123 - 91347
91319 - 91339
91157 - 91295
Nym interesting view on the evolution of the CLIP project set up and organisation of Tfl and LUL Resources - not good for the ongoing use of that "model" for tackling work on other fleets (internally).
Agree that there is a continued Skills, Knowledge & Experience shortage in both Technical and Management aspects and poor plans for retention and/or development - hence the increasing use of outsourcing (eg on BLU, SFA)
Massive decline at TFL on all levels . Station staff have given up and just hide. Still no sign of the so called fare evasion crackdown and the network delays are becoming unbearable . I did hear an announcement from
Mayor Sadiq bigging himself up for 10 years of night tube. The arrogance of this guy is outstanding since the network is a total mess
Like everything else in the UK unfortunately going to crap
Mayor Sadiq bigging himself up for 10 years of night tube. The arrogance of this guy is outstanding since the network is a total mess
Like everything else in the UK unfortunately going to crap
announcements
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The night tube he stole the glory for.
Regarding the '92 refurb, I caught my first one the other day. I use the Central line most days and cannot believe it's taken this long, and only makes me question what a long road to completion the scheme will be at the rate it is going.
Many more tickets inspections, in my personal experience, on DLR, Overground and buses over the last month or two. Not seen much on the tube.
Can't comment on buses or Overground, but that matches my experience also.
In fact, I've never had a ticket inspection on the tube, ever, despite using it multiple time a month for 20 years.
bluegoblin7
Established Member
I obviously won't be saying where or when, but I've been experiencing consistent ticket checks on the tube on trains over the last couple of months - I reckon I've had more on train checks than the last decade combined. They're definitely happening.
Mikey C
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I'm pretty sure none of the 1990s/2000s refurbishments were done in house, so baffling why TfL thought this was a good idea. Especially as there's plenty of capacity elsewhere in the country to do this type of work.
Not least in Derby, where the trains were made in the first place.
Not least in Derby, where the trains were made in the first place.
The point is likely that while redeveloping the in-house capacity is expensive, once they have developed it and Acton is reopen it will be cheaper for any future projects. I'm sure they did investigate it, and I'm absolutely sure prices were sky high, not least to try incentivise a new order instead of refurbishment at the level that is being done here.
Mikey C
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The chances are, that once the 1992 work eventually finishes, there will be no future work and the facility will be mothballed.
bluegoblin7
Established Member
No, the plan is very much still to in-house future stock refurbs, and plans are being made for the S stock, the first of which are coming up for overhaul already (currently happening at Neasden).