Routing query, Woking to Clapham Junction via Isleworth

I am looking to travel Woking to Clapham Junction direct on the way out (via the mainline, I.E. via Surbiton, Wimbledon) but back via Isleworth (Hounslow loop). I thought a simple Woking to Clapham Junction return would suffice for this, but having put in Woking to Clapham Junction direct and Woking to Clapham Junction via Isleworth as a single journey, I am getting different fares listed for the two routes (except on Sundays). I thought this ticket was valid via both routes but now having some doubts.

I have put this into National Rail, Trainline the forum own site and find that for the "via Isleworth" option I am offered a split at Weybridge (so Woking to Weybridge and seperate Weybridge to Clapham Junction tickets). However this ticket would I think not allow me to take a fast train direct to Clapham Junction on the way out as with a split ticket the train has to stop at the split point (so Weybridge, here).

The difference is if I plan the journey on a Sunday. Then the fare is exactly the same whether on the direct route or via Isleworth. Although the ticket offered is a Sunday Day out instead of an off peak return, so it's cheaper than any of the tickets offered on other days.

Now my thought was that I thought there is a "direct train rule", which means a ticket is valid if there is a direct train between them. So because there ARE direct trains between Woking and Isleworth (which continue to London Waterloo and call at Clapham Junction) the ticket is also valid via this route. However these direct trains only run on Sundays. This is because the Weybridge to Waterloo via Hounslow trains that run Monday-Saturday becomes Woking to Waterloo via Hounslow on Sundays.

So my question is, does this direct train rule mean this routing is ONLY valid on days when the direct trains run (rather than every day), so only on Sundays. Or is something wrong with the results I am getting? I am planning to make this journey on a Saturday.

joncombe said:

So my question is, does this direct train rule mean this routing is ONLY valid on days when the direct trains run (rather than every day), so only on Sundays.

Click to expand...

The direct train rule only applies if you take the direct train.

You cannot extend the principle to travelling at any time of day, or on any day, simply because one day per year (or timetable period) a direct train runs.

MrJeeves said:

The direct train rule only applies if you take the direct train.

You cannot extend the principle to travelling at any time of day, or on any day, simply because one day per year (or timetable period) a direct train runs.

Click to expand...

Ah I see thank you. I mis-understood then.

Map LE at https://rgpp.iblocks.co.uk/maps shows the valid routes for “any permitted” tickets from Woking to Clapham Junction. In addition to this, the shortest route and a route within 3 miles of the shortest route is valid, plus any direct train.
Map LE only shows the direct route via Surbiton.

A similar principle applies to Crewe-Birmingham; there happens to be at least one advertised direct service which goes via Shrewsbury, but going via Shrewsbury on services which require a change there is not valid.

Out of interest I have another query I have often wondered how this direct train rule works on circular routes.

For example I buy a ticket Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction. I travel west on a Kingston loop train which does, eventually, get me to Clapham Junction, via Kingston without changing.

Does this mean a single ticket Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction entitles me to travel via Kingston. If so, does it also permit break of journey there? (I assume not, but....)

The direct train rule does not allow break of journey.

In my previous example, Crewe-Birmingham on a through train via Shrewsbury is valid, but getting off at Shrewsbury and breaking your journey there isn’t.

If your Wandsworth-Clapham service is advertised as a through service in the “wrong” direction at Wandsworth, then it’s valid to use it to Clapham Junction but not to get off at Kingston, let alone to subsequently continue your journey from Kingston to Clapham Junction on a later train.

jfollows said:

The direct train rule does not allow break of journey.
In my previous example, Crewe-Birmingham on a through train via Shrewsbury is valid, but getting off at Shrewsbury and breaking your journey there isn’t.
If your Wandsworth-Clapham service is advertised as a through service in the “wrong” direction at Wandsworth, then it’s valid to use it to Clapham Junction but not to get off at Kingston, let alone to subsequently continue your journey from Kingston to Clapham Junction on a later train.

Click to expand...

Thanks that is what I thought was the case otherwise you would be able to travel much cheaper than intended! - thanks for confirming.

jfollows said:

The direct train rule does not allow break of journey.
In my previous example, Crewe-Birmingham on a through train via Shrewsbury is valid, but getting off at Shrewsbury and breaking your journey there isn’t.
If your Wandsworth-Clapham service is advertised as a through service in the “wrong” direction at Wandsworth, then it’s valid to use it to Clapham Junction but not to get off at Kingston, let alone to subsequently continue your journey from Kingston to Clapham Junction on a later train.

Click to expand...

What it's advertised as doesn't actually count, but rather whether it is, in practice, a direct service. Numerous stoppers are advertised with false destinations, e.g. Foxton instead of Cambridge, Burley Park instead of Leeds or Poppleton instead of York.

What it’s advertised as matters, as in my previous example.

If a Crewe-Shrewsbury-Birmingham service isn’t advertised as a single direct service, even if the same stock is used for both services, it’s not valid under the direct train rule. The fact that one or two services from Crewe are advertised as through services to Birmingham via Shrewsbury means they are valid.

False destinations confuse things, I agree.
I was recently on a Waterloo-Weybridge service which was advertised at Waterloo as a service to Addlestone. Once on the train it was advertised as a service to Weybridge. I found it a confusing mess. I was only going to Barnes Bridge, so I didn’t care, but having the station display one destination and the train display a different destination was annoying and stupid in my opinion. I could look out of the window whilst waiting to leave Waterloo and see the platform displays saying something different to the onboard ones.

jfollows said:

What it’s advertised as matters, as in my previous example. If a Crewe-Shrewsbury-Birmingham service isn’t advertised as a single direct service, even if the same stock is used for both services, it’s not valid under the direct train rule. The fact that one or two services from Crewe are advertised as through services to Birmingham via Shrewsbury means they are valid.
False destinations confuse things, I agree.
I was recently on a Waterloo-Weybridge service which was advertised at Waterloo as a service to Addlestone. Once on the train it was advertised as a service to Weybridge. I found it a confusing mess. I was only going to Barnes Bridge, so I didn’t care, but having the station display one destination and the train display a different destination was anoying and stupid in my opinion. I could look out of the window whilst waiting to leave Waterloo and see the platform displays saying something different to the onboard ones.

Click to expand...

Ok, I take your point - I would say the litmus test is what it is timetabled as. There needs to be a split or join association for it to be a through service; an "X forms Y" association is not sufficient. In practice anything a journey planner shows as direct will do.

jfollows said:

The direct train rule does not allow break of journey.
In my previous example, Crewe-Birmingham on a through train via Shrewsbury is valid, but getting off at Shrewsbury and breaking your journey there isn’t.
If your Wandsworth-Clapham service is advertised as a through service in the “wrong” direction at Wandsworth, then it’s valid to use it to Clapham Junction but not to get off at Kingston, let alone to subsequently continue your journey from Kingston to Clapham Junction on a later train.

Click to expand...

Very technically this is not true.

You are permitted to break your journey on a circular service using the direct train rule provided the fare to that intermediate station wouldn't have been higher.

Where a train service makes a circular journey and can be used in either direction to reach the destination on your Ticket you can travel either way regardless of the length of the journey – you do not need to take the shortest route. However, if you take the longer route, you cannot leave that service at an intermediate station where the fare would have been higher.

Click to expand...

In other words, "do not undercut other train fares by using the direct trains rule."

Wandsworth Town - Clapham Junction SDS £3.50
Wandsworth Town - Putney SDS £3.50
Putney - Clapham Junction SDS £3.50

As no fare is being undercut here, a Break of Journey is permitted at Putney with a Wandsworth Town to Clapham ticket on the long way round.

It isn't as if this is any difference to passengers - the rule (mostly) ensures any allowed BOJ isn't financially advantageous anyway.

jfollows said:

I was recently on a Waterloo-Weybridge service which was advertised at Waterloo as a service to Addlestone. Once on the train it was advertised as a service to Weybridge. I found it a confusing mess. I was only going to Barnes Bridge, so I didn’t care, but having the station display one destination and the train display a different destination was anoying and stupid in my opinion. I could look out of the window whilst waiting to leave Waterloo and see the platform displays saying something different to the onboard ones.

Click to expand...

This is an old Southern practice designed to help passengers unfamiliar with things.

There are many options to get to Weybridge but all the trains you refer to via Addlestone are stoppers via Chiswick taking 1h16 but a two minute earlier departure to Woking would take 48m. Showing Addlestone might make them look again at the departures.

The destination shown on the train is always correct, with routes out of Waterloo there are ample opportunities to take long trips needlessly.

Similarly if a stopper on the Portsmouth Direct to Waterloo was overtaken by a fast - by-passing but also stopping at Haslemere to give pax from intermediate stations a faster service - the stopper might be advertised as Clapham Junction at Havant. (I'm not saying it would mind.)

Swedenorer said:

This is an old Southern practice designed to help passengers. There are many options to get to Weybridge but all the trains you refer to via Addlestone are stoppers via Chiswick taking 1h16 but a two minute earlier departure to Woking would take 48m. Showing Addlestone might make them look again at the departures. The destination shown on the train is alwys correct, With routes out of Waterloo there are ample opportunities to take long trips needlessly. Similarly if a stopper on the Portsmouth Direct to Wloo was overtaken by a fast - by-passing but also stopping at Haslemere to give pax from intermediate stations a faster service - the stopper might be advertised as Clapham Junction at Havant. (I'm not saying it would mind.)

Click to expand...

Yes, I know all that of course, but it's the inconsistency that annoyed me - every station indicator at Waterloo said "Addlestone" but I got on the train and immediately saw that it said "Weybridge" so anyone unfamiliar with the practice or the geography would get off the train again immediately.

If the train said something like "Weybridge via Addlestone" that would be more consistent and helpful. The station auto announcer described the train as going to "Addlestone" whereas the train auto announcer said it was the train to "Weybridge".

Of course, many people just ignore all the noise and all the announcements anyway, and others realise what's going on, but it still seems incredible thoughtless to have different audio and visual announcements for the same train. Sitting on the train at Waterloo with the doors open prior to departure both announcements were clearly audible to anyone listening.

I suppose after 49 years I'm used to it!

Swedenorer said:

Similarly if a stopper on the Portsmouth Direct to Waterloo was overtaken by a fast - by-passing but also stopping at Haslemere to give pax from intermediate stations a faster service - the stopper might be advertised as Clapham Junction at Havant. (I'm not saying it would mind.)

Click to expand...

It wouldn’t.

Swedenorer said:

I suppose after 49 years I'm used to it!

Click to expand...

Local trains for local people I guess!
I lived in the area 1981-84 I guess.
Isn't the point of announcements and so on to be helpful, rather than confusing?

joncombe said:

I am looking to travel Woking to Clapham Junction direct on the way out (via the mainline, I.E. via Surbiton, Wimbledon) but back via Isleworth (Hounslow loop). I thought a simple Woking to Clapham Junction return would suffice for this, but having put in Woking to Clapham Junction direct and Woking to Clapham Junction via Isleworth as a single journey, I am getting different fares listed for the two routes (except on Sundays). I thought this ticket was valid via both routes but now having some doubts.

Click to expand...

The route you describe doesn't involve passing through any station more than once (north of Weybridge, anyway). If you're planning a day trip, you could look at a return ticket to somewhere else along the route, not only to Clapham Junction.

Chiswick's the closest station to the midpoint of your route. As it happens, a "not via London" return from Woking to Chiswick would be valid via either Wimbledon and Clapham Junction or Addlestone and Isleworth.