Bus services you think are useless.

Megafuss said:

It stops at the Rail Station, so the good folk of Alston and Langwathby could have a "day out" at Booths and Mcdonalds if they wanted ☺️

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Not to mention Cranstons (best food hall in Cumbria IMO )

Penrith has a surprising number of useful shops. Yorkshire Trading Company for example. But then I'm biased.

I would nominate Brentwood community transport route 808 - much of the route duplicates NIBS bus 81 although it does serve Brentwood Community Hospital & Warley unlike the 81. The real issue is the timetabling - it is scheduled a few minutes before or after an 81. So for Shenfield to Hutton jouneys you have 2 buses within 3 minutes and then no bus for 57 minutes. Likewise in the opposite direction Shenfield to Brentwood - 2 buses within 6 minutes then nothing for 54 minutes. It would be useful if it provided more of a coordinated frequency with the 81.

Given that the 81 has much longer operating hours it is the 808 i deemed to be fairly useless, as well as the fact that
earlier this week when i tried to catch it, it didn't even turn up. Certainly not very useful.

moonarrow458 said:

I would nominate Brentwood community transport route 808 - much of the route duplicates NIBS bus 81 although it does serve Brentwood Community Hospital & Warley unlike the 81. The real issue is the timetabling - it is scheduled a few minutes before or after an 81. So for Shenfield to Hutton jouneys you have 2 buses within 3 minutes and then no bus for 57 minutes. Likewise in the opposite direction Shenfield to Brentwood - 2 buses within 6 minutes then nothing for 54 minutes. It would be useful if it provided more of a coordinated frequency with the 81.

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I used 808 quite a few times (in fact, earlier today as well) and love it. It has a different routeing in Hutton compared to 81, and the passengers/drivers are all super friendly - I almost always opt for 808 instead of 81, unless I fancied an impromptu heritage running day.

I'd argue 808 is more useful than 81, since it serves a larger part of Hutton as well as the hospital.

Over in Northern Ireland, I can mention the 95c from Enniskillen to Rosslea.....on a non school day you only have a 17:10 from Enniskillen, the morning journey is school days only!

It's 10 miles from Rosslea to the nearest point a bus route runs.

TheGrandWazoo said:

My selection is the T2 in Cambridge. It runs from one Madingley Park and Ride to Fen Ditton and Milton Park and Ride via Impington. I'm sure the idea is to provide links from Histon and Impington (though it avoids the former) to the Eddington development and.... but on the limited viewing I see of it, it's usually a decker with a driver and perhaps one passenger?

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The CPCA website says this about route 2:

A smart option for cross-city travel in the North without going through the centre.

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The T2 route does not avoid Histon, it travels along Station Road, which is the boundary of Impington and Histon between Histon War Memorial and Histon Station (note both of these are named after Histon not Impington). Furthermore it passes the Vision Park, which is Histon's biggest employment hub, on the site of the old Chivers Jam Factory.

Vision Park Cambridge is an established Research Park in Cambridge's North Science Cluster and close to the City Centre.​

Situated in beautiful landscaped grounds with a lakeside café, the park is fast becoming home to exciting and ambitious businesses looking for a permanent home in the innovative heart of the Cambridge phenomenon.​

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I suspect that eventually the T2, or its successor, will go via Darwin Green instead of Murketts Corner:

Darwin Green is an exciting new community located under two miles from Cambridge city centre. The development will provide a mixture of one and two apartments alongside two, three and four-bedroom houses. The development will also include open green spaces, a central park, new primary school, supermarket, library, and sports facilities. A secondary school will also be delivered in future phases.

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Unfortunately the development of Darwin Green had a major setback when a number of partially completed houses had to be demolished:

Work has begun to demolish 83 fully and partially built houses on a new development after faults were found with their foundations.

The houses are part of the Darwin Green site on the edge of Cambridge.

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gingerheid said:

people on the T4 route need a better service to Cambridge more than a bus to Addenbrooke's.

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People on the T4 route have the Stephensons route 11 to get to and from the town centre. What the T4 delivers is a route to and from the hospitals, the biomedical campus and the Hills Road and Long Road sixth form colleges, without going near the town centre. This was high priority for Hills Road and Long Road students living in places like Bottisham and Burwell, who were having great difficulty when their village buses only took them to and from the town centre, which wasn't where they wanted to go.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Whilst I'm on a roll with Cambridgeshire... I'd be interested to hear from locals with experience of the T7 from Chatteris to Wisbech. I've not experienced it but on the few times that I've been out in that part of the Fens, I've never thought that it was the missing link.

For the uninitiated, it runs from Chatteris (sleepy Fens town) north to Wisbech (busier Fenland town) but avoiding the only major town (March - yep, another sleepy market town where they still point at planes). Instead, the main roads is left to other services to March (combined hourly frequency) and another hourly March to Wisbech route whilst the T7 circuitiously serves a selection of tiny villages with three vehicles out all day from 0600 to 2300.

As I say, I've not been on it/seen it so I'd be interested to hear from someone who has.

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I have not used the T7, but I have talked to someone who has. It was more well used than they expected.

There is no need for the CPCA to fund a service via March, other operators already provide services. The two oddities with the T7 are that much of the Wisbech end of the route is in Norfolk, and that it passes Manea station but does not stop there.

I'll nominate the 1 service here: https://bustimes.org/services/1-nitshill-silverburn-centre run by Cochri Coaches

Again i get it may be for the older population etc but there is also the tendered 49 McGills service as well which serves a lot of the same route bar the Nitshill/Pinmore St and Seamill St area

Skiddaw said:

Not to mention Cranstons (best food hall in Cumbria IMO )

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If you can afford Cranston’s then you’d not be on the bus!

Kite159 said:

That 681 seems to have changed from running to Birdoswald, to only going as far as Carvoran to provide a higher frequency service towards Alston

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It’s to do with the other contract up there, the HW1 run by Reays from Carlisle, which now covers the Walltown to Birdoswald bit.

Magdalia said:

The T2 route does not avoid Histon, it travels along Station Road, which is the boundary of Impington and Histon between Histon War Memorial and Histon Station (note both of these are named after Histon not Impington). Furthermore it passes the Vision Park, which is Histon's biggest employment hub, on the site of the old Chivers Jam Factory.

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That is akin to be "tallest of the seven dwarves" It may technically graze Histon but it doesn't serve the village in any meaningful way such as passing via the duck pond, the shops, the Indian, etc.

Magdalia said:

I have not used the T7, but I have talked to someone who has. It was more well used than they expected.

There is no need for the CPCA to fund a service via March, other operators already provide services. The two oddities with the T7 are that much of the Wisbech end of the route is in Norfolk, and that it passes Manea station but does not stop there.

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CPCA already fund the 302 and 56 though

I think that the Arriva in Medway services 1, 2 and 100 are pointless in their current guise. They all serve a purpose but seem very wasteful of resources. I live on St Mary’s Island and rely on the 100 as part of my daily commute so I’m not looking at getting rid of it or either the 1 or 2. However, it would be great if the services all combined.

I would propose maintaining the combined service pattern currently operating but making the following tweaks and operating as two services (1 service but a variation).

• 1 - Running from 0530 (as the 100 previously did) from The Strand to Chatham Bus Station via Universities and Dockside on its current approximately every 15/20 minute service.
• 1A - As above replacing one of the above services, but an hourly service calling at St Mary’s Island in addition.

TheGrandWazoo said:

hat is akin to be "tallest of the seven dwarves"

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I would not describe the Vision Park as a dwarf, the Chivers Jam Factory was a big site, see the picture here (the busway is just visible bottom right, and Station Road top right):


And the description here:

Vision Park Cambridge is an excellent choice for those wanting to benefit from being literal neighbours to Cambridge Science Park, St Johns Innovation Park, Cambridge Business Park and Cambridge Research Park. These parks make up Cambridge’s largest commercial cluster, offering 3.2 million sq ft of office and R&D accommodation. They are only one junction away on the A14 from Vision Park or just two stops on the guided busway.

The park comprises nine landmark office and R&D buildings all of which offer flexible and adaptable opportunities for a range of office, laboratory and R&D uses.

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Going back to the Cambridgeshire services, I agree completely about the T7. As previously stated, it passes Manea station but there is no stop and the section in Norfolk is duplicated by longstanding Lynx route which is also subsidised. When I travelled on it last year, I was the only passenger for whole journey.

I have travelled on the T4 from Cambridge and it was well filled with sixth form students and justified its double decker. Its problem is that the schedule is impossible. The bus that I travelled on left 10 minutes late from Addenbrookes and arrived 20 minutes late in Newmarket so the return journey was late. The proposed route C shown in the map is the current T5 which is quite successful. It replaced Stephensons 11 and picked up its existing patronage. The schedule is tight and the turnround times as well. It needs a third vehicle and perhaps interwork with another route.

It a feature of CAPCA schedules that they are very efficient - good running times and short turnround times but do that, they miss out useful stops or like the T4 and T5 are usually running late. There is also absolutely no thought given to anything beyond securing the cheapest tender. A classic example is the T4 which provides a link from the villages into Newmarket replacing that section of Stevensons 11. The Stevensons route detoured via the large Tesco in Newmarket but the CAPCA route doesn't - presumably to save running time. The villages lose their direct link to Tescos.

H28 in West London is absolute torture
I tried it once.
Never again.
Check out the map.

Magdalia said:

I would not describe the Vision Park as a dwarf, the Chivers Jam Factory was a big site, see the picture here (the busway is just visible bottom right, and Station Road top right):

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I know how big it is and its history. However, in comparison to the largest sites in Cambridge or Huntingdon, it isn’t that big.

If you prefer, big fish in a small pond. As for the sales blurb… well they would say that

Teds said:

Going back to the Cambridgeshire services, I agree completely about the T7. As previously stated, it passes Manea station but there is no stop and the section in Norfolk is duplicated by longstanding Lynx route which is also subsidised. When I travelled on it last year, I was the only passenger for whole journey.

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It does appear like an odd thing to support and not cheap - 3 buses running all day and night (but not Sunday).

Not surprising that they are proposing axing it and having more on the main road via March.

Far too many to mention in North Yorkshire, some of the most pointless town services have been done away with, which could easily be walked or wheeled by almost anyone in 2014ish. I'm thinking Norby to Thirsk Market Place. There are however plenty that remain that run once or twice a week at incovenient times on market days. They'd be better cutting these services and using any money saved to run the odd service which would probably require a lower per passenger subsidy and attract more fare paying passengers. I'm sure for every five or so of these useless services they cut, they could create a new bus route that people might actually find useful, once the farebox revenue comes in it's unlikely to raise much but should stem the losses so that they could maybe run a couple more such routes. See for example 59 Thirsk to Husthwaite circular, taking a torturous route through lots of snooty villages, only to return 70 minutes later. Or the '1' service form Selby to Pocklington to Selby, which allows people from Pocklington to go direct and spend a whole three hours in Selby a grand total of twice a week and almost always has nobody on departing Selby on its return journey. I have to say that's a quite niche market, so it doesn't surprise me.

Again, why not use the money to provide the odd extra route here and there, with say, four journeys a day, for every five or so of these services that are cut, providing a few fewer places with a journey yes, but one they might actually find useful? Alternatively, what about routes such as the 153 from Thirsk to Northallerton, which has service during the day Monday to Saturday but no peak service (so only runs at times of day when people are less likely to want to travel, again, where's the sense in that?).

Mr. SW said:

H28 in West London is absolute torture

H28 bus route

Choose a stop to view live arrivals and status information or add to favourites

tfl.gov.uk

I tried it once.
Never again.
Check out the map.

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For someone who's not familiar with the area really, could you briefly explain what's bad about the map please? Appreciate it's not direct but I assume no one is doing the full journey from Tesco to... Tesco!

I'll nominate the 129 Liscard-Frankby Cemetery, this service operates on Sundays only & one journey each way, but you only get 35 minutes at the Cemetery before the return journey starts, it goes by where i live & i never see anyone one it, it feels like one of those routes that's so invisible it could be sponsored by MI5, not sure the reason it's still going, but really should be withdrawn & no one would miss it.

mikeg said:

Far too many to mention in North Yorkshire, some of the most pointless town services have been done away with, which could easily be walked or wheeled by almost anyone in 2014ish. I'm thinking Norby to Thirsk Market Place. There are however plenty that remain that run once or twice a week at incovenient times on market days.

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Inconvenient times for whom? Do these services not cater for (mostly elderly) people going shopping?

mikeg said:

I'm sure for every five or so of these useless services they cut, they could create a new bus route that people might actually find useful, once the farebox revenue comes in it's unlikely to raise much but should stem the losses so that they could maybe run a couple more such routes. See for example 59 Thirsk to Husthwaite circular, taking a torturous route through lots of snooty villages, only to return 70 minutes later. Or the '1' service form Selby to Pocklington to Selby, which allows people from Pocklington to go direct and spend a whole three hours in Selby a grand total of twice a week and almost always has nobody on departing Selby on its return journey. I have to say that's a quite niche market, so it doesn't surprise me.

Again, why not use the money to provide the odd extra route here and there, with say, four journeys a day, for every five or so of these services that are cut, providing a few fewer places with a journey yes, but one they might actually find useful?

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I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of these market day routes, which is to allow a bit of shopping and return. They are no doubt convenient for the demographic that use them.
As for withdrawing them to make savings to run other routes, you need to understand the financing of the shopping services. The services will be being provided in between school bus runs, with drivers whom (during the school terms at least, but often in holidays too) are being paid anyway. The marginal cost of providing such services is quite small.
It will take the withdrawal of a huge amount (25 or so) of one or two day per week middle of the day shopping buses to pay for one extra bus and driver to operate peak time service, without any guarantee that this four journeys a day service will carry any more than penny numbers. The political cost would be enormous, with large numbers of 'snooty' villages losing their bus service, thousands of people claiming their lifeline has been cut (even if they only use it once a year, if that). Those people will have paid / will be paying large quantities of tax, and whilst they may not be getting it all back in services, will at least expect a modicum of service in their village.

mikeg said:

Alternatively, what about routes such as the 153 from Thirsk to Northallerton, which has service during the day Monday to Saturday but no peak service (so only runs at times of day when people are less likely to want to travel, again, where's the sense in that?).

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The 'peak' travel demand in rural areas is dictated by the conveyance of schoolchildren, usually in dedicated buses and taxis. The quantity of available vehicles (of both types) in these areas is pretty much in line with that demand. (try ordering a taxi at school times!). What few public buses that do run will usually be conveying schoolchildren as well and be timed for their convenience (unless towards a major town where the number of ordinary passengers will be sufficient). Any other flows of passengers are simply not catered for, as it is too expensive in comparison to the likely use. I should think a peak time bus from Thirsk to Northallerton would be one of the last to be prioritised, due to the existence of central government funded rail service between the two places (and yes, I know that the stations are not well sited for the centre of the towns).

Of course, whether a service is 'useless' or not is purely a personal opinion. Many of the busiest bus services in the UK are directly 'useless' to me simply because I am very unlikely to have any cause to go there and need to ride on them..... However, if they are needed to allow the country as a whole to function, be it for commerce or for the wellbeing of all or a section of the population, then perhaps not so 'useless'. And there are many shades of grey in that statement!

mikeg said:

Far too many to mention in North Yorkshire, some of the most pointless town services have been done away with, which could easily be walked or wheeled by almost anyone in 2014ish. I'm thinking Norby to Thirsk Market Place. There are however plenty that remain that run once or twice a week at incovenient times on market days. They'd be better cutting these services and using any money saved to run the odd service which would probably require a lower per passenger subsidy and attract more fare paying passengers. I'm sure for every five or so of these useless services they cut, they could create a new bus route that people might actually find useful, once the farebox revenue comes in it's unlikely to raise much but should stem the losses so that they could maybe run a couple more such routes. See for example 59 Thirsk to Husthwaite circular, taking a torturous route through lots of snooty villages, only to return 70 minutes later. Or the '1' service form Selby to Pocklington to Selby, which allows people from Pocklington to go direct and spend a whole three hours in Selby a grand total of twice a week and almost always has nobody on departing Selby on its return journey. I have to say that's a quite niche market, so it doesn't surprise me.

Again, why not use the money to provide the odd extra route here and there, with say, four journeys a day, for every five or so of these services that are cut, providing a few fewer places with a journey yes, but one they might actually find useful? Alternatively, what about routes such as the 153 from Thirsk to Northallerton, which has service during the day Monday to Saturday but no peak service (so only runs at times of day when people are less likely to want to travel, again, where's the sense in that?).

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For the North Yorkshire services that run once or twice a week...

Routes like the 59 and 147 are clearly aimed at the declining number of non-car driving pensioners who pop into places like Thirsk on a market day. Granted, 70 mins does seem a bit short. They are the last survivors of many similar routes that used to exist and would run off-peak using vehicles from schools work - axing them would save very little money as a consequence.

Same with those town services in places like Richmond, Northallerton, Skipton and Pickering, run with council welfare minibuses that usually do SEND schools transport. People like my mum and my aunt, both no longer with us, had limited mobility and used those services to get into town and they were a lifeline.

TheGrandWazoo said:

For the North Yorkshire services that run once or twice a week...

Routes like the 59 and 147 are clearly aimed at the declining number of non-car driving pensioners who pop into places like Thirsk on a market day. Granted, 70 mins does seem a bit short. They are the last survivors of many similar routes that used to exist and would run off-peak using vehicles from schools work - axing them would save very little money as a consequence.

Same with those town services in places like Richmond, Northallerton, Skipton and Pickering, run with council welfare minibuses that usually do SEND schools transport. People like my mum and my aunt, both no longer with us, had limited mobility and used those services to get into town and they were a lifeline.

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Looking at the 59, I think this is serving places that you & I would remember having been on the United 128 running Daily from Scarborough to Ripon.......

londonteacher said:

I think that the Arriva in Medway services 1, 2 and 100 are pointless in their current guise. They all serve a purpose but seem very wasteful of resources. I live on St Mary’s Island and rely on the 100 as part of my daily commute so I’m not looking at getting rid of it or either the 1 or 2. However, it would be great if the services all combined.

I would propose maintaining the combined service pattern currently operating but making the following tweaks and operating as two services (1 service but a variation).

• 1 - Running from 0530 (as the 100 previously did) from The Strand to Chatham Bus Station via Universities and Dockside on its current approximately every 15/20 minute service.
• 1A - As above replacing one of the above services, but an hourly service calling at St Mary’s Island in addition.

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I'd disagree, and say they are the very opposite of pointless: they do the job they are designed to do, taking passengers where they want to go!

For the benefit of others who don't live in the area, the 1 is the "main" service along that stretch. The 2 is a short working to Dockside, and whilst some would argue it could have the same number, it helps with "only does to Dockside" recognition. Between them, they provide a "main corridor" 15 minute frequency to the Dockside "outlet centre" and associated cinema/eateries/gyms/gin distillery.

The 100 is essentially the St Mary's Island (SMI) shoppers bus (except this week, when the road closure means there's no suitable diversion!). I've been in the area since before SMI was built as housing (although not quite as long to remember it as the Dockyard's waste dump). It's had a frequent bus service. It's had no bus service. It's had bus services provided as extensions of others. It's had bus services interworked with others. It's had bus services serving Dockside directly rather than the main road. Ultimately, nothing works, because, rather like it's larger Maidstone-area cousin Kings Hill, if you can afford to live on SMI, you don't need the bus (certainly when they were new-build houses, at least). To a certain extent this can be seen even today, in that the only reason a weekend service is provided at all is because it is tendered, and fits somewhat (if not entirely easily) as part of provision with other tendered services. 25 years later, the service has settled down to what fits the passenger load.

Unfortunately, whilst your suggestion would improve service to SMI, it would unfortunately be a "pointless diversion" for many of the other passengers who'd see their journey time extended as a result for few extra passengers.

I would nominate the 124 in Wokingham, haven’t actually used it before but judging of the routing and the timetable I can’t see that it is useful.

This is going to be a busy thread

RT4038 said:

Looking at the 59, I think this is serving places that you & I would remember having been on the United 128 running Daily from Scarborough to Ripon.......

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Indeed - the route from Thirsk to Coxwold was part of the old 128; how Husthwaite was served, I don't know (possibly some indie like John Smiths?).

The 128 was butchered in the North Yorkshire service reductions of 1976 being cut back to be Ampleforth to Scarborough. Thirsk to Helmsley became the 138 (later 141). It only had journeys on Monday (Thirsk market day), Friday (Helmsley market day), Saturday and Sunday so it's "uselessness" by not being daily is well established

The Sunday service (which lasted until 1989?) was truly useless though. A single journey from Thirsk about 1800 that went to Helmsley, didn't connect with the 128, and then came back immediately and was the only journey in Thirsk on a Sunday.

It's quite fun that in this thread - apart from the Cambridge link-together-park-and-rides-slowly one - there is no service everyone agrees is useless!

What about that once a week service on the Wirral that goes to a cemetery? The 129 I think…

Not quite a useless service, but one which could be easily improved to give it more use would be the 91 in Chesterfield. It's an evening / Sunday tendered service, and as far as I can tell it's not been altered since the 80s. It links the Yew Tree estate in Somersall with Chesterfield town centre, but follows a different route to the 90 which serves the area during the day.

Unfortunately, this means it misses the main attractions people are going to want to access at these times. In particular, the local supermarkets and the many pubs on Chatsworth Road. The timings are also fairly useless, with connections in to the evening X17s from Sheffield usually missed by a few minutes.

Over the years there have been changes, such as the loss of evening and the majority of Sunday buses up Chatsworth Road with the demise of Hulleys, and the loss of shops in the town centre making it less of a destination. The route and times really need revising to better serve the local population, but it feels like tendered services only get any love if they serve business parks and the like.

If it were up to me, I'd re-route the service up Chatsworth Road, down Somersall Road, through Walton and the Yew Tree estate and on to Holymoorside. I'd then route the few evening X17s that go to Matlock via Boythorpe and fill in the gaps with an out and back service, so both corridors have something hourly.

Egg Centric said:

For someone who's not familiar with the area really, could you briefly explain what's bad about the map please? Appreciate it's not direct but I assume no one is doing the full journey from Tesco to... Tesco!

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The H28 is a series of very short routes strung together with small overlaps run as a single service.
Bulls Bridge Tesco, Hayes to Springwell Road
Springwell Road to Hounslow
Hounslow to Thornbury Road, Osterley
Thornbury Road to West Middlesex Hospital
Hospital to Syon Lane Tesco
It's 5.6km as the crow flies or 3.5miles and takes 77 minutes. That's slow.
Check out some of the other routes in the area such as the 111 or the H91.
Here's a video of the route
Check the video length.
Here's a much shorter video
Trivia time: Springwell Road used be known as Spurt Lane.

Statto said:

I'll nominate the 129 Liscard-Frankby Cemetery, this service operates on Sundays only & one journey each way, but you only get 35 minutes at the Cemetery before the return journey starts, it goes by where i live & i never see anyone one it, it feels like one of those routes that's so invisible it could be sponsored by MI5, not sure the reason it's still going, but really should be withdrawn & no one would miss it.

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Sunday cemetery (and special hospital) services used to be quite common. Though this is a rare survival.

And 35 minutes seems about right for walk to grave, lay flowers, ponder life, walk back to bus stop.

All school day only services are a expensive waste of a resource that could be used elsewhere

Anthony ross said:

All school day only services are a expensive waste of a resource that could be used elsewhere

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So you want children to get up a 3am in the morning to walk 10 miles to the nearest school