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Banking trains in the UK
- Thread starter jazzy
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Supercoss
Member
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British Pullman and Britannic explorer assisted in rear out of London Victoria platform two, cab radio GSM-R used cab to cab
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Hello @jazzy
I can't offer recent-recent evidence but here are examples in recent years:
Lickey Incline: YouTube has videos showing steel trains and oil trains with 60 or 66 at front and 66 at rear. Older (1990s) video taken from one cab of two banking class 37s, as they shove a train of steel-coils up.
Banking locos not coupled. On the video I mentioned of the 37s, you actually see the steel-coils train pulling away from the cab of the leading banker, just after Blackwell.
Comms via GSM-R, as per previous post.
Diesel assistance for steam: usually the diesel idles away "just in case"; however, I've seen (and heard!) the rear class 47's banking-assistance:
- 2024: shoving B1 61306 up Buriton Bank (on Portsmouth Direct Line),
- 2009: the final trains along Folkestone Harbour branch had a class 47 "flat-out" pushing WC 34067 (in Jan) and Britannia 70013 (March) up the 1:30 gradient to Folkestone Junction.
In all those examples, diesel was coupled to rear carriage.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Small suggestion @jazzy - perhaps change the thread title to Banking Trains in the UK.
When your thread title appeared in my feed, my first thought was your thread was about financial app/online banking.
I can't offer recent-recent evidence but here are examples in recent years:
Lickey Incline: YouTube has videos showing steel trains and oil trains with 60 or 66 at front and 66 at rear. Older (1990s) video taken from one cab of two banking class 37s, as they shove a train of steel-coils up.
Banking locos not coupled. On the video I mentioned of the 37s, you actually see the steel-coils train pulling away from the cab of the leading banker, just after Blackwell.
Comms via GSM-R, as per previous post.
Diesel assistance for steam: usually the diesel idles away "just in case"; however, I've seen (and heard!) the rear class 47's banking-assistance:
- 2024: shoving B1 61306 up Buriton Bank (on Portsmouth Direct Line),
- 2009: the final trains along Folkestone Harbour branch had a class 47 "flat-out" pushing WC 34067 (in Jan) and Britannia 70013 (March) up the 1:30 gradient to Folkestone Junction.
In all those examples, diesel was coupled to rear carriage.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Small suggestion @jazzy - perhaps change the thread title to Banking Trains in the UK.
When your thread title appeared in my feed, my first thought was your thread was about financial app/online banking.
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zwk500
Veteran Member
Depends on the location. At Victoria they are allowed to assist unattached. This allows the main train to power away while the banking loco stops on Grosvenor bridge and allows the route be reset for Stewarts Lane (or wherever) without needing to take a line block and spend 5 mins uncoupling outside a busy terminus. I don't know off-hand of anywhere else where unattached banking is permitted, but I'm sure there's some.
On the Lickey they couple up, I think some locos were fitted with special couplings that could be released on the move from the cab when they got to the top at Backwell.
Although these are providing assistance on banks where required, they are different in that the loco is normally not there purely as a banker, but often provides ETH/ETS and allows for reversals later in the tour.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
The example pair of 37s (and a 58 in latter 1990s, and steam footage I'd found on the likes of Rallway Roundabout), all the banking locos were coupled to each other but not coupled to the train's rear vehicle.
So, if the 60s and 66s used for banking at Lickey are coupled (and air-pipes too?) to rear of train, then that is a more recent pratice - and, if not fully auto-release, an inefficient operation.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Absolutely - hence my post split these out from the "proper" banking operation.
Trainman40083
Established Member
I remember the good old days, when diesels would have a loco pushing from the rear, up Cowlairs Bank out of Glasgow Queen Street.
zwk500
Veteran Member
All sorts of stuff that used to happen no longer does, to be fair.
One of the distinctions between 'banking' and a train properly coupled at the rear is that the banker will not normally be connected to the main train's automatic brakes. Indeed, the rulebook states:
(GERT8000-TW1, Section 15.1) - Document not publicly available.
I've double-checked and assisting without being coupled up is permitted on the Lickey, even if the locos fitted with auto-release do regularly attach. Not coupling up doesn't save much time nowadays as I don't think the crossover at Backwell is in use, and freight usually needs to be held around birmingham for pathing anyway.
For @jazzy, the following Sectional Appendices list the locations where Banking is permitted, and whether the loco must be coupled or can be loose:
LNE (Search 'Assisting in Rear'), Page 94-95)
LNW South Table J (page 56-57)
LNW North, under 'Special Working Arrangements' (search 'Assisting/Assisted in rear')
Scotland, under 'Special Working Arrangements' (search 'Assisting/Assisted in rear')
Western & Wales, under 'Special Working Arrangements' (search 'Assisting/Assisted in rear')
Anglia and Southern Region appear not to specify, although I could have missed something in my quick search.
All files available here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...ators/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/
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How does it work on the radio? I assume that as a failsafe, if the banking locomotive hears silence on the radio, they cease banking. i.e. they only apply banking if they're actively being told to apply banking.
Supercoss
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Would you include the High Output Ballast Cleaning train / HOBC/ with this as it has a staffed rear loco under power to apply traction power ‘where necessary’ due to length & weight of formation?
SECR 65
Member
I understand that at a recent steam gala, the Swanage Railway used a loose-banked steam engine to assist LSWR T3 No 563 out of Swanage station as 6 coaches is a stretch for it.
PP57601
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I did an overnight Pathfinder Railtour in July 1999 from the South-West to Scotland.
47726 wasn’t too healthy, and succumbed on the climb up the Lickey Bank.
66115 was coming behind on a steel train and (eventually) was allowed to bank the charter train up to the summit, before dropping away as the 47 recovered speed.
It still amazes me how many knob-heads decided to exit the train through the droplight windows whilst we were stationary (awaiting events), just to avoid having a 66 for haulage.
The most bizarre sight to be had was of Pathfinder stewards shining torches into the ‘cess’ undergrowth trying to identify the culprits who then decided to flee across the adjacent fields in search of other ‘transport’. God only knows what they were expecting to find at almost 1am in rural Worcestershire.
47726 limped into Birmingham New Street, before being replaced by 47738 for the journey further north.
47726 wasn’t too healthy, and succumbed on the climb up the Lickey Bank.
66115 was coming behind on a steel train and (eventually) was allowed to bank the charter train up to the summit, before dropping away as the 47 recovered speed.
It still amazes me how many knob-heads decided to exit the train through the droplight windows whilst we were stationary (awaiting events), just to avoid having a 66 for haulage.
The most bizarre sight to be had was of Pathfinder stewards shining torches into the ‘cess’ undergrowth trying to identify the culprits who then decided to flee across the adjacent fields in search of other ‘transport’. God only knows what they were expecting to find at almost 1am in rural Worcestershire.
47726 limped into Birmingham New Street, before being replaced by 47738 for the journey further north.
zwk500
Veteran Member
The drivers come to a clear understanding prior to departure as to what is needed, and the nature of needing a banker means the rear loco should be consistently applying power, especially as it should not lose contact during the move. There are also special or local instructions published, either in particular notices or the sectional appendix, for how to bank at locations where it happens often or is particularly awkward.
It's also possible that if there are concerns about safely being able to assist, changes can be required by NR or TOC operations. When a bridge was struck just outside Victoria some years ago, it meant that certain lines were banned to loco haulage and therefore charters would be crossing over a lot more S&C during the move. Because of the greater risk of the loco losing contact, permission to bank the train uncoupled was suspended/not given and assistance on the rear was required to be coupled. For the charters this usually meant just keeping the diesel on the back, although a couple may have added a stop at a suitable location further on to uncouple the loco.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
If I recall correctly the auto-release is for trains with a buckeye coupler at the rear end, which will engage with the one on the loco as soon as they try to push.
66055-059 were modified and fitted with a release mechanism that was actuated by a button on the drivers desk. That allowed the driver in the cab of the banking engine to uncouple from the train on the move. They were also fitted with a spot light on the buffer beam to help with coupling up at night.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
I'm mentally crossing off the locations with steep banks but which no longer make use of a banking engine. It's a rather sobering list.
Two recollectons from the early 1980s, sadly missed: Exeter St Davids up to Central; and Upwey Bank out of Weymouth.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Exeter St Davids to Central is still permitted in the Sectional Appendix though. Upwey Bank would now be in Wessex so isn't listed.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
I wonder when a banked train last ran up it. I only saw one, in summer 1983*
* blue 47 484 IKB lugging a Meldon load up to Central, with a 33/0 thrashing its guts out at rear.
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Was on a railtour about 1990 with 50031 on the front and 50032 on the rear. 50032 powered from St Davids to Central.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Ah I think I recall reading of that (I was living in Lancashire, then) - thanks for reminding me.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
When the Todmorden Curve was removed in the 1970s the crossover and stub at the Stansfield Hall end was kept as a siding for banking engines.
notverydeep
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At least until the 1990s freight trains departing Westbury through Dilton Marsh towards Warminster (the summit being at Upton Scudamore) were often banked uncoupled. The line climbs around 60 metres over four kilometres. I’ve no idea whether banking still occurs routinely…
Sun Chariot
Established Member
A local (to me) railway photographer makes occasional work trips to that area. He hasn't photo'd trains being banked - but here's one working with a mid-train helper, plus two leading. A bit of a variation for you @jazzy
6A50 at Edington, Wilts.
59102 leads 66550 and 66531 (mid formation) working the 6A50 1026 Whatley Quarry to Hanwell Bridge Loop loaded stone, all in hoppers on this occasion. Unfortunately no rape in the field behind this year, but plenty around in neighboring fields. Edington is about 4 miles to the east of Westbury...
www.flickr.com
Was there any banking in East Anglia? There’s the odd steep quayside line (e.g. Mistley) or yard (Bow, Chelmsford) but were any trains banked?
ac6000cw
Established Member
...except there's little visible evidence that the mid-train loco is contributing much (no visible exhaust haze etc.), so I suspect it's mostly along for the ride so the train can be easily split when it gets to Hanwell.A local (to me) railway photographer makes occasional work trips to that area. He hasn't photo'd trains being banked - but here's one working with a mid-train helper, plus two leading. A bit of a variation for you @jazzy
6A50 at Edington, Wilts.
59102 leads 66550 and 66531 (mid formation) working the 6A50 1026 Whatley Quarry to Hanwell Bridge Loop loaded stone, all in hoppers on this occasion. Unfortunately no rape in the field behind this year, but plenty around in neighboring fields. Edington is about 4 miles to the east of Westbury...
Both the 59 and the 66 on the front (in the 2nd photo) are working hard, based on the exhaust haze, and I suspect that pairing alone could haul anything that the couplers are strong enough to handle... Counting the hoppers in both photos, it looks like there's around 4200 tonnes of train behind the pair i.e. 59102+66550+18 loaded hoppers+66531+22 loaded hoppers.
(Edited based on info in post #26 re. mid-train loco)
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Other than Lickey (the sleeper) and Cowlairs (quite a lot) where was the last regularly scheduled banking of passenger trains in the UK? Not talking about railtours, push-pull operations or ailing locos…
Again for clarity, not including MLVs on the Folkestone Harbour branch unless they came off at the top.
Again for clarity, not including MLVs on the Folkestone Harbour branch unless they came off at the top.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
The photographer and I met up two weeks after that day's shot. He was showing me his photos and assured me all three GMs were on the power (albeit mid-train was not at "notch 8").
barringtoncem
Member
Would the rescue of the failed HST by a fully laden Class 59 approx 15 years ago classed as banking as i believe they did couple up the two locomotives ?
Sun Chariot
Established Member
I know the occasion you mean (and good footage of it was on YouTube a while back). I think I'd call that one: "pushing assistance, to clear the main line section".
zwk500
Veteran Member
I don't think there's a formal definition of 'banking' per se but assisting a failed train wouldn't normally be included. Banking is generally planned assistance for pre-defined areas.
43096
On Moderation
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Banking is to get a train up a bank (hill). That’s why it is called banking.