What's the plan for Barry? Is it just a stopgap to provide extra stabling space while there are two fleets to handle and therefore to be off-leased later?
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Are there any other options for DMUs for TfW and other operators other than CAF?
- Thread starter BenBracken
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BenBracken
Member
Is there any idea what the specific cost of the 197 fleet was? TfW put out £800m as the overall cost of all the new trains, but it would be interesting to know what the 197s were out of that. In this little island of ours with a big population all trying to get around surely it’s better to get more carriages and seats for your buck and therefore buy cheaper trains?
They invested quite a bit iirc so I suspect it'll end up being used long term, potentially replacing some of the stabling that was planned for Rhymney. I guess it might also result in canton having more stabling capacity. One downside to Barry Vs Canton is Barry has no electrified sidings for charging the batteries up.
Depends on what you're giving up in return. I'd say that accessibility and longevity (pure DMUs should be phased out before the lifespan of new trains) aren't worth giving up.
Regarding how much the 197s cost, I'm guessing this is something that could be FOId. Though perhaps they'll claim it's commercially sensitive.
Doors opening at speed, ISTR.
Are the 197s leased or purchased ‘outright’? If leased then would be ongoing operating costs rather than one off capital expenditure.
Tetragon213
Member
I remember posting this table that I found online a while ago, but irritatingly I can't actually find the original page I got it from!
From the base price, it looks like the 197s were about £5.5 million per unit. By comparison, the diesel-only 231s were about £6.9 million per unit.
About £1.5mil cheaper per unit, but on a 231 you get far more train per £ imo. CAF really did earn the "Cheap as ####" nickname with the build quality, with reliability poor enough that you'll often find yourself needing to "Call A Fitter", after the units have "Caused A Farce".
Imo FLIRTs should be the way to go, not CAF's offering. The unreliability of the CAF units will cost far more in the long run that £1.5 million in delay repay, disruption, and increased maintenance costs.
From the base price, it looks like the 197s were about £5.5 million per unit. By comparison, the diesel-only 231s were about £6.9 million per unit.
About £1.5mil cheaper per unit, but on a 231 you get far more train per £ imo. CAF really did earn the "Cheap as ####" nickname with the build quality, with reliability poor enough that you'll often find yourself needing to "Call A Fitter", after the units have "Caused A Farce".
Imo FLIRTs should be the way to go, not CAF's offering. The unreliability of the CAF units will cost far more in the long run that £1.5 million in delay repay, disruption, and increased maintenance costs.
TastyMaltesers
Member
Of course, the FLIRTS also have the bonus that it is feasible to convert all-diesel units into bi-modes at a later date, as TfW are doing with theirs.I remember posting this table that I found online a while ago, but irritatingly I can't actually find the original page I got it from!
From the base price, it looks like the 197s were about £5.5 million per unit. By comparison, the diesel-only 231s were about £6.9 million per unit.
About £1.5mil cheaper per unit, but on a 231 you get far more train per £ imo. CAF really did earn the "Cheap as ####" nickname with the build quality, with reliability poor enough that you'll often find yourself needing to "Call A Fitter", after the units have "Caused A Farce".
Imo FLIRTs should be the way to go, not CAF's offering. The unreliability of the CAF units will cost far more in the long run that £1.5 million in delay repay, disruption, and increased maintenance costs.
With regards to your last sentence - companies will find it cheaper to do a bad job and pay the fines, than it would be to just provide an adequate service. Royal Mail comes to mind as a good example...
They also had to pay extra to upgrade the seats on the 197s which idk if that'll be included in the above prices.
Fwiw the 197s (along with all the brand new rolling stock) are leased. I'm guessing the £800m number is spread across the lease period but probably doesn't account for maintenance contracts and the sort.
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I wonder how much stadler are charging for the 231 bi-mode conversion. I would hope that any new FLIRT order just came with the panto included, but perhaps it does make sense to get them diesel only and convert in future. (I think it did for the 231s tbf)
Fwiw the 197s (along with all the brand new rolling stock) are leased. I'm guessing the £800m number is spread across the lease period but probably doesn't account for maintenance contracts and the sort.
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I wonder how much stadler are charging for the 231 bi-mode conversion. I would hope that any new FLIRT order just came with the panto included, but perhaps it does make sense to get them diesel only and convert in future. (I think it did for the 231s tbf)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
How reliable are the Welsh FLIRTs? The Merseyrail units have been disastrous in that regard.
The FLIRTs had some software issues (see every new train ever in recent years) but I think they're pretty reliable at this point.
I believe GAs are pretty solid at this point too.
Other Stadler units are unfortunately a bit less solid it seems, but they're not the same train design so I think FLIRTs are still the right move.
The 777s and 555s are both part of their Metro platform, and the 398s are Citylink.
I believe GAs are pretty solid at this point too.
Other Stadler units are unfortunately a bit less solid it seems, but they're not the same train design so I think FLIRTs are still the right move.
The 777s and 555s are both part of their Metro platform, and the 398s are Citylink.
Tetragon213
Member
I do wonder if Stadler could be convinced to make a quad-mode unit, capable of working off Diesel, Battery, OLE, and Third Rail. Would make for an interesting test train!
Hopefully, seeing that TfW is government operated, they'll have an incentive to not anger their potential voter base!
TastyMaltesers
Member
A bi/tri/quad mode unit with 3rd rail pickup could be of interest to SWR replacing their 159s, but that's straying further off topic...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
TfW might find one with third rail handy for operating the Borderlands onto the Liverpool Loop, though I suspect that's probably more likely to be delivered (if it ever is) by Merseyrail taking it over with battery 777s on their behalf. Adding another operator to Merseyrail's network would be quite a lot of added complexity, particularly given that neither will go into GBR as such.
It would make sense to keep it depending on what happens with any new fleet order.
Canton is still maintaining 18x 150's (36 carriages), 7x 153/3 and 9 153/9 effectively shouldn't be there by now. In total 52 carriages.
While it has put Canton very much at capacity, it's still the equivalent of 12-13 4 car 231/756's, with the flexibility and switching between Barry and Canton.
If Barry Depot goes then Canton will be back at capacity pretty quickly, not allowing for any expansion of the fleet stabling there.
BenBracken
Member
Obviously TfW have spent the money now and have to make the 197 fleet work, that’s quite a big chunk of the £800m! When TfW put the orders in I doubt they would have foreseen these issues and thought they were getting a good train for their money? Am I right in thinking the following operators/GBR areas outside of TfW operate DMU services with 15x units which will require replacement -EMR, SWR, Scotrail, Northern & GWR. Have any of them indicated any form of replacement plan?
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I remember James Price saying to us that they'd pretty much exhausted the penalty clauses they could throw at CAF. This was back when they had been introduced to service late, and we were having endless issues with aircon and toilets.
Northern are tendering for new stock https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/about-us/newtrains
There’s a thread on GWR/SWR/Chiltern potentially ordering replacements https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ble-combined-fleet-order-philip-haigh.289507/
Scotrail have also started their procurement process https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail-suburban-fleet-emu-and-bemu-market-engagement.289261/
D365
Veteran Member
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For completeness, the thread for Northern new train updates is linked here. Albeit currently locked (at the time of my writing this post) as there haven't been any updates in a while!
Snow1964
Established Member
Wales could also electrify.
I am sure it was said 3 or 4 shortish sections (something like 7-10 miles each), very similar to what is being planned in Scotland, allows new BEMUs on lot of workings, thus a cascade of diesel 197s.
It was something like Bridgend-Port Talbot area, Barry area, Severn Tunnel-Chepstow (allowing Cheltenham trains to be converted), and if extra services were to run to Pembrey & Burry Port would need a bit in Gowerton-Llanelli area. I think latter was an aspiration for a turn back of 15 minute service serving the Burns station (but my memory is fuzzy and might have partly been for a service via new stations on Swansea district line)
The concept was a cascade of BEMUs taking over some South Wales services, freeing up the existing stock, and allowing some shuffling of 2 and 3 car units, so some busy 2 become 3 and some 3 become 2+2. I think it even allowed the diesel equipped tri-mode flirts to go further west.
I suspect Stadler would be more than happy to supply more similar Flirts 3 or 4 or 5car with batteries but no diesel module.
BenBracken
Member
Thanks! Are the Siemens Desiro units an option? They have supplied electric and diesel units to the UK that would fit the bill, are they considered more sturdy and less problematic than CAF ones?
Tetragon213
Member
It's been a while since Siemens made them for us, and I don't recall any other recent orders elsewhere for them. Does Siemens still make Desiros these days?
Snow1964
Established Member
I don't think Siemens make diesel multiple units anymore
There is a UK size version of Desiro, called verve, still on their website, but it only exists on paper, as none have ever been ordered
Trainbike46
Established Member
Realistically, what we should be ordering now to replace end-of-life DMUs and to enable passenger growth is BEMUs, across all operators, though there should be some cascading of existing DMUs to the more challenging routes.
From comments on the Scottish procurement thread, all the expected players are competing for that, which I think means Hitachi, CAF, Siemens, Alstom, and Stadler. There is also a few potential new players competing, based on the same thread.
For Wales, an electrification "island" around Shrewsbury would probably be enough to switch the Manchester service to BEMUs, and given the position of Shrewsbury in the TfW network, would also be a step towards enabling BEMU operation on many other services.
From comments on the Scottish procurement thread, all the expected players are competing for that, which I think means Hitachi, CAF, Siemens, Alstom, and Stadler. There is also a few potential new players competing, based on the same thread.
For Wales, an electrification "island" around Shrewsbury would probably be enough to switch the Manchester service to BEMUs, and given the position of Shrewsbury in the TfW network, would also be a step towards enabling BEMU operation on many other services.
Tetragon213
Member
Iirc battery chargers are not all that expensive to install, either. Certainly, it's a drop in the bucket compared to OLE installation.
If OLE wasn't so damned expensive to install, it would be a no-brainer to electrify and cascade.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
You are not going to get any Bi/Tri/Quad units going onto the Mersey Rail network if they have a diesel engine. Merseyrail do not want trains containing fuel in their tunnels.
So it will have to be a Battery EMU. Batteries with enough capacity to get to Wrexham is a tall order maybe. Fast charge akin to that at West Ealing for the GW 230 might do it.
BenBracken
Member
Have CAF shot themselves in the foot though, with their handling of the TfW fleet supply and the poor after sales service!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
CAF generally just sell a product and upper line support with the TOC doing the maintenance themselves, compared to most others who sell a product with a long service contract as a partnership type arrangement. Maybe that speaks for the latter - which might itself provide motivation to make sure the product is of good quality! That said, 80x...
The Verves are very obviously being marketed towards the ScotRail tender but I suspect the requirements are similar in Wales, and the ScotRail tender requiring level boarding should mean a lot of manufacturers developing their plans for level boarding (the Verves would offer level boarding for example.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They are also likely I'd have thought to bid it for the Northern procurement, and probably the GWR one if that is progressing.
Yeah I suspect that's the case, I just meant there's leaflets online advertising them with a livery that's essentially ScotRails but saying Desiro Verve as the text instead.