Meaning of terms such as Cancelled At Point of Entry (CAPE) etc

etr221 · 15 Aug 2026

Horizon22 said:
They are also nowhere specific enough for the purpose required here. One postcode could be a whole side of a street for example or a number of disparate buildings.

I came across a Scottish post code, which covered two addresses five or ten miles apart - they were 'next door neighbours' along the road, there just wasn't anything in between (except moorland).
And another couple in Scotland, both of which also applied to addresses across the border, in England...

Belperpete said:
I wasn't aware of the problems with what3words, but it is far superior to OS Grid references, for example. OS may be fine for safety critical trained staff, but is very poor for the public, as it is so easy to get it wrong, numbers transposed, longitude and latitude the wrong way around, etc. What3words at least provides three easily remembered words.

The underlying principle of W3W is that for a location, it will generate three words which you can easily remember, and give them to someone else who will be able accurately enter them to reverse the process to get the location. But for the W3W app, a word is no more than a string of letters... In theory, fine, but in practice, when you have some of the more difficult words, similarities between words, thick accents, poor spelling, their approach to multilingualism, it soon becomes not - and if you get it wrong, it could be anywhere, from the other side of the world, to just far enough away to be a problem. Apart from all the other problems down to it being a commercial, supposedly money making (in practice, I believe not) operation, these make it something best avoided. Another issue perhaps its fixed precision - to an approximately 3m square - meaning anything larger will have many unrelated locations...

While I would not disagree that, for anything using long numbers - grid references, lat & long, phone numbers, account numbers,etc., there is a risk of them being got wrong, but I suspect this is balanced by - realising this - greater care being taken that they are correct.

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RailwayRookie · 15 Aug 2026

A key competent of what three words usage for emergency services is the sense check, all 999 calls should route you to the areas local call centre, if you then give them a w3w that shows up 200 miles away, they are very likely to question it. Combined with the fact they can and do ping your location on a mobile phone.

There is an op-ed piece somewhere about the inaccuracy of w3w which makes for some good reading but it boils down to the emergency services have more robust methods of verifying your reference and the standard layman using it to communicate to another layman is likely not in a life threatening situation that is so time critical you can't hash out the mistake.

swt_passenger · 15 Aug 2026

etr221 said:
I came across a Scottish post code, which covered two addresses five or ten miles apart - they were 'next door neighbours' along the road, there just wasn't anything in between (except moorland).
And another couple in Scotland, both of which also applied to addresses across the border, in England...

Not that surprising though when you look at the postcode area maps, eg for the TD area, which I think stands for Tweeddale, but it doesn’t map onto the Tweeddale that is part of (modern) Scottish Borders. Named for the river catchment perhaps? The post office mustn’t have considered the national border for very long when setting up the system.

Dr Hoo · 15 Aug 2026

Making a valiant attempt to get this thread back onto railway telegraphic code:

I was once with the Station Manager at Gravesend (a long-experienced traditional railwayman) where he was puzzling over a teleprinter message along the lines of
“1234 CHX-GRV QUAIL”

He was well aware that QUAIL translated as “Following on hand at station named without address. Wire if you can trace passing, or if wanted by you”, but there were no further details. Hmm…

The mystery was solved when a Senior Railman walked into the office with a bird in a special livestock container. “Hey, Guv, I need to use an outside line to advise the recipient that their quail has arrived.”

etr221 · 15 Aug 2026

RailwayRookie said:
A key competent of what three words usage for emergency services is the sense check, all 999 calls should route you to the areas local call centre, if you then give them a w3w that shows up 200 miles away, they are very likely to question it. Combined with the fact they can and do ping your location on a mobile phone.

There is an op-ed piece somewhere about the inaccuracy of w3w which makes for some good reading but it boils down to the emergency services have more robust methods of verifying your reference and the standard layman using it to communicate to another layman is likely not in a life threatening situation that is so time critical you can't hash out the mistake.

An W3W bad example is "There’s been a train derailment, on the Clyde", at likely.stage.sock - typing it in to W3W, it will also suggest likely.stages.sock, both in Dumbarton, West Dunbartonshire (though one isn't), and both close to a railway line. Only about a mile apart - but with the River Clyde in between... Near enough not raise eyebrow, but far enough to cause major problem. Quoted in https://cybergibbons.com/security-2/why-what3words-is-not-suitable-for-safety-critical-applications/.

But if you make an emergency call from your (reasonably modern) mobile it will trigger a matching emergency text with your location from GPS - far better than anything you might get from an app - Advanced Mobile Location.

RailwayRookie · 15 Aug 2026

etr221 said:
An W3W bad example is "There’s been a train derailment, on the Clyde", at likely.stage.sock - typing it in to W3W, it will also suggest likely.stages.sock, both in Dumbarton, West Dunbartonshire (though one isn't), and both close to a railway line. Only about a mile apart - but with the River Clyde in between... Near enough not raise eyebrow, but far enough to cause major problem. Quoted in https://cybergibbons.com/security-2/why-what3words-is-not-suitable-for-safety-critical-applications/.

But if you make an emergency call from your (reasonably modern) mobile it will trigger a matching emergency text with your location from GPS - far better than anything you might get from an app - Advanced Mobile Location.

Thats exactly the report I was thinking of thank you, I remembered the railway example, although that is from 5 years ago and allegedly W3W were "looking into it"... probably didn't but im far too lazy to actually check that myself right now.

Falcon1200 · 16 Aug 2026

devon_belle said:
Cancelled at point of entry.

I worked for the railway for 38 years and that is the first time I have ever heard that explanation of CAPE !

Merle Haggard said:
CRANKEX

There was, possibly still is, another (more) derogatory term for enthusiast specials which is too rude to be shown here. The ex part at the end remains, however.

SargeNpton · 16 Aug 2026

Falcon1200 said:
There was, possibly still is, another (more) derogatory term for enthusiast specials which is too rude to be shown here. The ex part at the end remains, however.

I think it was the control at Waterloo that used the abbreviation DAA (Daft As A*******"), which was subsequently adopted by someone who ran enthusiast charters.

StephenHunter · 16 Aug 2026

Gloster said:
The words that were chosen were ones that not likely to be used very often in a message and even less likely to cause confusion if they did. Some were unintentionally amusing: ‘Funco’ for ‘Vehicle with funeral party and corpse.

See also NATO Reporting Names. You could have a Spoon Rest on a Warflat.

(A P-12 early warning radar on a 50-ton bogie flat wagon)

Merle Haggard · 16 Aug 2026

SargeNpton said:
I think it was the control at Waterloo that used the abbreviation DAA (Daft As A*******"), which was subsequently adopted by someone who ran enthusiast charters.

I was going to mention this but unsure because of the vulgarity.

It was first used in the last days of BR steam by enthusiastic but well-balanced followers of steam as a form of abuse to describe those who took their enthusiasm far beyond the normal bounds of sanity. Being apparently an innocuous and opaque initialism it had the advantage that it could be used in conversation on, for instance, a crowded train without causing offence.

Like other terms of abuse, and as you mention, 'DAA' seemed to be adopted as a badge of honour amongst some to the extent that, for a few years after the end of steam, adverts in the railway enthusiast press advised of 'DAA Re-unions'.

xotGD · 16 Aug 2026

Merle Haggard said:
I was going to mention this but unsure because of the vulgarity.

It was first used in the last days of BR steam by enthusiastic but well-balanced followers of steam as a form of abuse to describe those who took their enthusiasm far beyond the normal bounds of sanity. Being apparently an innocuous and opaque initialism it had the advantage that it could be used in conversation on, for instance, a crowded train without causing offence.

Like other terms of abuse, and as you mention, 'DAA' seemed to be adopted as a badge of honour amongst some to the extent that, for a few years after the end of steam, adverts in the railway enthusiast press advised of 'DAA Re-unions'.

I was expecting something much more vulgar beginning with a T.

Merle Haggard · 16 Aug 2026

xotGD said:
I was expecting something much more vulgar beginning with a T.

Funnily enough that word in my youth meant 'hit hard'.
Now we can have endless fun with the ambiguity when it's used in the phrase 'it needs a hard hit with a hammer'

Omnishambles · 16 Aug 2026

KASLO was always one of my favourites which used to be left at the end of our Control handover notes, Keep A Sharp Look Out
Ones that used to bug my OCD head were seeing messages that trains had been CAPEd effectively saying a train had been cancelled-ed ! Similar with speed restrictions had been SPATEd

6Gman · 16 Aug 2026

Adrian Barr said:
Another more obscure term from regular English that I encountered (albeit only once) on the railway was "stet" to indicate that the crossing-out (in pen) of a line in a document was to be ignored. Stet was written above it, used "to indicate that matter previously marked for deletion or revision is to remain unchanged."

In the days when train planning documents were prepared on paper, then passed to a typing bureau, then passed back for checking before going to the reprographic bureau for printing ... 'stet' was a widely-used term!

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contrex said:
When I worked in Address Structure for TV Licensing, part of my task was weeding out locations that had postcodes but were not suitable for their database. I remember 'Water Tank', and 'Signal Box'. In cases of the former, we tended to get irate letters or phone calls from the nearest inhabited building, where the poor posties used to drop our 'reminders' off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2026 ==

Wow, the fascinating world of railway codes!

Off-topic, but I was once Clerk to a small, rural parish council. I received a letter from TV Licensing warning that we might be in breach of the law if we did not have a TV licence for our premises. We had no premises. Underlined by the fact that they sent the letter c/o the Borough Council several miles away!

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Merle Haggard said:
I was going to mention this but unsure because of the vulgarity.

It was first used in the last days of BR steam by enthusiastic but well-balanced followers of steam as a form of abuse to describe those who took their enthusiasm far beyond the normal bounds of sanity. Being apparently an innocuous and opaque initialism it had the advantage that it could be used in conversation on, for instance, a crowded train without causing offence.

Like other terms of abuse, and as you mention, 'DAA' seemed to be adopted as a badge of honour amongst some to the extent that, for a few years after the end of steam, adverts in the railway enthusiast press advised of 'DAA Re-unions'.

Wasn't there an organisation named 'DAA Railtours' at one time? 1970s?

12C · 16 Aug 2026

On this interesting subject, has anyone any idea where the term ‘demic’ comes from, as in regarding a failed or non operational vehicle? I’ve never heard it used in any other industry other than the railway.

Merle Haggard · 16 Aug 2026

12C said:
On this interesting subject, has anyone any idea where the term ‘demic’ comes from, as in regarding a failed or non operational vehicle? I’ve never heard it used in any other industry other than the railway.

I first heard it on BR about 1970 and, puzzled, I asked its origin and was told that it was an abbreviation for 'de-mechanised' - but that sounds like a back-creation to me.

45Fox · 16 Aug 2026

12C said:
On this interesting subject, has anyone any idea where the term ‘demic’ comes from, as in regarding a failed or non operational vehicle? I’ve never heard it used in any other industry other than the railway.

I've often wondered this, in nearly 42 years on the job nobody has been able to give me a definite answer.

I wasn't sure if it was originally derived from 'condemned' but that doesn't feel quite right; for withdrawn stock, yes, but not for failures.

It's another one of those wonderful railway words and terms whose origins appear to be lost in the mists of time, unless anybody can enlighten us?

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Merle Haggard said:
I first heard it on BR about 1970 and, puzzled, I asked its origin and was told that it was an abbreviation for 'de-mechanised' - but that sounds like a back-creation to me.

I would tend to agree with you on that

snowball · 16 Aug 2026

My late father used "demic" occasionally and he had no connection with the railway except as a passenger.

45Fox · 17 Aug 2026

snowball said:
My late father used "demic" occasionally and he had no connection with the railway except as a passenger.

Even more intriguing.

If you don't mind me asking, did your late father have a background in engineering or the military possibly?

I'm wondering if it's a term that's migrated to the railway from a discipline outside, they were just two possible candidates.

Merle Haggard · 17 Aug 2026

45Fox said:
/snip

I would tend to agree with you on that

It was always pronounced as 'Demmick' then no - emphasis on a syllable - rather than 'Dee - meck' with emphasis on first syllable further breaking the connection. The latter seems to be the current usage, though.

Dr Hoo · 17 Aug 2026

Omnishambles said:
KASLO was always one of my favourites which used to be left at the end of our Control handover notes, Keep A Sharp Look Out
Ones that used to bug my OCD head were seeing messages that trains had been CAPEd effectively saying a train had been cancelled-ed ! Similar with speed restrictions had been SPATEd

KASLO not being a telegraph code word though. Surely just a contraction/ abbreviation like IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer) in the Disputes section.

snowball · 17 Aug 2026

45Fox said:
Even more intriguing.

If you don't mind me asking, did your late father have a background in engineering or the military possibly?

I'm wondering if it's a term that's migrated to the railway from a discipline outside, they were just two possible candidates.

He had no connection with engineering (though his younger brother did).

He was conscripted into the army for a few years during WWII. He was in hospital in South Africa when his unit got sent to Burma, so he spent the rest of the war in a non-fighting role in South Africa as a clerk to some officers.

GordonT · 17 Aug 2026

Merle Haggard said:
It was always pronounced as 'Demmick' then no - emphasis on a syllable - rather than 'Dee - meck' with emphasis on first syllable further breaking the connection. The latter seems to be the current usage, though.

A simple Google produces the following. Whether it's accurate or not and whether it adds much to the discussion is itself debatable.

In certain regional English dialects (such as Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, or parts of the West Country), demic (sometimes spelled demick) historically evolved as a shortened form of epidemic. Evolution of Slang: It originally described a potato disease or localized sickness, later expanding in military and regional slang to mean feeling unwell, and eventually anything broken, faulty, or dysfunctional.

Paul AC · 17 Aug 2026

6Gman said:
Wasn't there an organisation named 'DAA Railtours' at one time? 1970s?

DAA Railtours ran up to 1984: their tours mixed in locos and rare track. I think there was a "BR Staff" element to the organising team, and of course the "DAA" was used ironically (as in Daft As A...s but never explained as such). I recall the marathon "Anglo Scottish Freighter" on 4th - 6th May 1984.

Dunfanaghy Roa · 17 Aug 2026

Re; DEMIC.

FUBAR gives 'demmick' as Tommy, Aussie, Canuck and Kiwi slang for a soldier on the sick list.

Pat

The exile · 17 Aug 2026

Oxfordblues said:
"VICE" was in common usage even in advice to passengers as in "The 08:21 to Waterloo is 4 VICE 8" (meaning you'll probably have to stand!)

Although that isn’t railway slang (as any Vice-President will tell you!)

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SargeNpton said:
I believe that "bobby" is now banned in driver to signalman conversations. There was a plan to make such exchanges similar to those in air travel, to try to reduce any confusion. Don't know whether that was actually put into practice.

Isn’t that, ironically, at least in part what gave rise to the telegraphic codes in the first place?

Bertiethebobby · 17 Aug 2026

driver9000 said:
It's the old railway telegraph word used to describe a train that has been cancelled throughout. It later became a 'backronym' for "Cancelled At Point of Entry". Many people will use CAPE incorrectly to describe a train that terminates short of its destination when they should use PINE instead.

Another backronym Ive seen is "Cancelled And Proceed Empty To Depot"

DunsBus · 17 Aug 2026

swt_passenger said:
Not that surprising though when you look at the postcode area maps, eg for the TD area, which I think stands for Tweeddale, but it doesn’t map onto the Tweeddale that is part of (modern) Scottish Borders. Named for the river catchment perhaps? The post office mustn’t have considered the national border for very long when setting up the system.

It is the TD postcode area - TD stands for TweeD. TD12, which is Coldstream, extends across the border (and the Tweed) to Cornhill. TD15 which is Berwick and Holy Island also includes Foulden, just across the border in Scotland.

Merle Haggard · 17 Aug 2026

One of our little office 'sports' was to create new meanings for BR acronyms. A sort of backronym I suppose.
For instance PP&CCA officially meant Profit Planning and Cost Centre Analysis but it was always Poor Planning and Cost Crisis Again to us.
One for the class 25/9 was invented, far too rude for the forum, from them being kept for engineering departments, freight use ceasing. I wasn't a perfect one, but they weren't in the best of condition ...

zwk500 · 17 Aug 2026

Adrian Barr said:
Many code words seem to have died out over time. It's been a few years since I've seen WALNUT REDE appended to the bottom of a document - perhaps he's retired.

IIRC, OPPOS (not to be passed by traffic on the opposite line) is still used regularly in Clearance Paperwork and Control for managing bridge restrictions, etc, and LACER (not to use crossovers between platforms) is referenced in the Sectional Appendix Table D.

Meaning of terms such as Cancelled At Point of Entry (CAPE) etc

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