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Guided buses: not enough regard for safety?

Bletchleyite

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The fence itself is not that ugly but it does remove much of the appeal of the adjacent cycle path - it's still useful as a quick traffic-free route into the city centre but it's going from charming to utilitarian and slightly claustrophobic. I don't want to be that person which opposes projects like these over the impact on the landscape, I'll take a safe, speedy busway and an okay cycle path over a trundling busway and a pleasant cycle path, this just seems a bit overblown - it's not like you can trip and fall onto the busway on the unfenced sections.

That was actually what happened several times on the southern section, wasn't it? I'd agree that on some of the western section it'd be impossible to do by accident but there are certainly bits where you could. It probably comes down to that it's easier to fence it all than get into debates on which bits need fencing, and fencing it might deter some casual trespass.
 
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Magdalia

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it's not like you can trip and fall onto the busway on the unfenced sections.
That's what it was like, with 3 deaths and some serious injuries.

Few of them are particularly useful for getting from A to B though.
The Chisholm Trail that runs close to the railway between Cambridge North and Coldhams Lane is an example that is both functional and charming. The DNA path next to the railway between the Biomedical Campus and Shelford is also both functional and charming. Both of these can be seen from the train.

One of my favourites is the cycle path through the grounds of Babraham Hall, another nice one is the route from Trumpington to Hauxton that avoids the M11 junction.

All of these are used as commuter routes, not just for recreational cycling.
 

Magdalia

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Sadly there was a fatality on the Luton-Dunstable busway last week see here.


A man in his 20s has died following a crash on a guided busway.

Bedfordshire Police said it was called at about 01:18 GMT to reports of an injured man, following the collision in Telford Way, Luton, on the route that links the town with Dunstable.
 

Haywain

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Sadly there was a fatality on the Luton-Dunstable busway last week see here.

Whilst the detail is lacking in the report, it appears that the incident occurred at the point where the busway is on a bridge over Telford Way. The footway is not separated from the busway by a fence on that stretch.
 

Magdalia

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The safety fencing installation on the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway has gone way over budget:


The cost to install fencing across a busway network on which three people have died has nearly doubled.

Cambridgeshire County Council has been putting up fencing along the 16-mile (26km) busway, which links Cambridge, Huntingdon and St Ives, after it was fined £6m in the wake of the deaths.

The original budget for the fencing was £6.5m, but a report to the council's highways committee on Tuesday said the project was now forecast to hit £12.5m.
I expect this doesn't include the cost of the additional bus services for employees on the Biomedical Campus that operated while the busway was closed.
 

Magdalia

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And now Stagecoach are reducing service frequency on the busway because extended journey times, resulting from the safety work, have led to a significant drop in passenger numbers:


Bus frequencies will decrease on a busway after a "significant" drop-off in the number of passengers linked to safety fencing work.

Cambridgeshire County Council has been putting up fencing along the 16-mile (26km) busway, which links Cambridge, Huntingdon and St Ives, after it was fined £6m in the wake of three deaths.

The speed limit on the network was reduced to a blanket 30mph (48km/h) in October while permanent fencing works were carried out.

Darren Roe, managing director of Stagecoach East, one of the bus operators on the busway, said it supported the safety work, but the extended journey times had led to people "changing their travel patterns".

He said this had resulted in a "significant loss of people travelling on the busway".

"As such, it is impossible for us to maintain services at their current frequency, and so, from 1 January 2027, frequencies will reduce from every 10 minutes to every 15 minutes at peak times, and from every 20 minutes to every 30 minutes off-peak," he said.
 

johncrossley

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The council needs to be prosecuted for the extra car traffic generated by their roadworks, and consequent additional road accidents.
 

Haywain

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The council needs to be prosecuted for the extra car traffic generated by their roadworks, and consequent additional road accidents.
Oh yeah, who's going to bring that prosecution to the courts and under which law?
 

Magdalia

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The council needs to be prosecuted for the extra car traffic generated by their roadworks, and consequent additional road accidents.
Most road works are done by utility companies such as gas, water and electricity.

The council's own road works are mostly road resurfacing and filling potholes, which is generally regarded as a good thing, and reduces accidents.

Road works don't generate extra car traffic, they just make the existing traffic move more slowly.
 

Trainbike46

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And now Stagecoach are reducing service frequency on the busway because extended journey times, resulting from the safety work, have led to a significant drop in passenger numbers:

That is really disappointing - is there any information as to when the safety works will be complete, and speed restrictions can be lifted?

Hopefully passengers and frequency will return when the buses can run at full speed again.
 
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johncrossley

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Road works don't generate extra car traffic, they just make the existing traffic move more slowly.

Normal roadworks that affect general traffic actually cut traffic, because they make driving less attractive, although they also have a negative effect on bus usage as well.

However, in this case, roadworks are only affecting buses. The number of bus passengers have gone down and former passengers are presumed to be driving instead.
 

Magdalia

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However, in this case, roadworks are only affecting buses. The number of bus passengers have gone down and former passengers are presumed to be driving instead.
There are no roadworks only affecting buses. There is installation of safety fences on the guided busway, and reduced speed limits on the guided busway while the safety work is being done.

That is really disappointing - is there any cure as to when the safety works will be complete, and speed restrictions can be lifted?

Hopefully passengers and frequency will return when the buses can run at full speed again.
The bizarre feature of this is that the safety works are supposed to be complete by the end of 2026 but the Stagecoach service reductions start at the beginning of 2027.

Although not explicit, my reading is that there will be some permanent reductions in speed limits on the busway, especially at crossing points.

Oh yeah, who's going to bring that prosecution to the courts and under which law?
Cambridgeshire County Council has already been prosecuted and fined for breaches of the Health and Safety at Work Act. The installation of the safety fences, and the speed reductions, are in response to that, so that they are no longer in breach of the law.
 

Trainbike46

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The bizarre feature of this is that the safety works are supposed to be complete by the end of 2026 but the Stagecoach service reductions start at the beginning of 2027.
That is bizarre!
Although not explicit, my reading is that there will be some permanent reductions in speed limits on the busway, especially at crossing points.
That is really disappointing. I wonder if there would be options to speed up other sections to make up the difference (e.g., increasing the speed limit on "plain line" sections after the fences are up to more than the old speed limit, more bus lanes in Cambridge to speed up the bus service after it leaves the busway, or measures that reduce dwell times).

If the frequency reduction is permanent that will likely, by itself reduce passenger numbers further.
 

Bletchleyite

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There are no roadworks only affecting buses. There is installation of safety fences on the guided busway, and reduced speed limits on the guided busway while the safety work is being done.

That to me is roadworks only affecting buses. You wouldn't say replacing the Armco on a motorway wasn't roadworks, would you?
 

Bletchleyite

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The guided busway isn't a road, so any work on it can't be road works.

If it looks like one and quacks like one... :)

I don't think these technicalities of what it legally is in any way affect the point which was being made, which is that these works will be causing people to switch to driving.
 

paulmch

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Are the speed limits still in place across the whole of the busway, even in places where the work has been fully completed?
 

Bletchleyite

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Are extra car journeys being made as a result of the speed restrictions?

If bus journeys are down where do you think they have gone? Short distance travel is less discretionary than long distance, so journeys will still be being made.

I wonder though if the timing of this is a threat to ensure the work is done in a timely way.
 

johncrossley

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If extra car journeys are being made as a result of the speed restrictions, then the Council are on the hook for not putting in place mitigation measures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I wonder though if the timing of this is a threat to ensure the work is done in a timely way.

Maybe Stagecoach think the damage will have been done and the passengers won't come back, even when the (road)works have been completed.
 
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Magdalia

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I don't think these technicalities of what it legally is in any way affect the point which was being made
The legal technicalities are very important, as the council found out.

If it looks like one and quacks like one... :)
The guided busway does not look like a road. I don't know many roads that are mostly grass with frequent concrete obstacles. In Cambridge not looking like a road is essential to stop cyclists from using it.

If bus journeys are down where do you think they have gone? Short distance travel is less discretionary than long distance, so journeys will still be being made.
In Cambridge a lot of journeys could transfer to cycling, especially as there has been almost no rain for months.

Maybe Stagecoach think the damage will have been done and the passengers won't come back
I wonder whether bus travel has been hit by changes in travel patterns following the opening of Cambridge South.
 

johncrossley

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In Cambridge a lot of journeys could transfer to cycling, especially as there has been almost no rain for months.

But most of the route is out of town. What about travellers from St Ives (for example)? I suppose some of them could cycle along the busway path but I presume most of them have switched to cars.
 

Magdalia

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But most of the route is out of town. What about travellers from St Ives (for example)? I suppose some of them could cycle along the busway path but I presume most of them have switched to cars.
Which just means creeping slowly along the A14 instead.
 

Sleepy

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If extra car journeys are being made as a result of the speed restrictions, then the Council are on the hook for not putting in place mitigation measures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Maybe Stagecoach think the damage will have been done and the passengers won't come back, even when the (road)works have been completed.
Stagecoach are probably right - who wants to sit in a slow baking hot bus when a nice airconditioned car is a much nicer option when outside temperatures are reaching 35°
 

PeterC

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If it looks like one and quacks like one... :)

I don't think these technicalities of what it legally is in any way affect the point which was being made, which is that these works will be causing people to switch to driving.
It looks like a plateway to me. Just using concrete rather than cast iron.
 

Haywain

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Cambridgeshire County Council has already been prosecuted and fined for breaches of the Health and Safety at Work Act. The installation of the safety fences, and the speed reductions, are in response to that, so that they are no longer in breach of the law.
What's that got to do with the question posed in post #157, which was clearly referring to the busway works as 'roadworks'. The council was prosecuted for matters concerning the safety of the busway itself, not the resultant traffic on (other) roads.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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What's that got to do with the question posed in post #157, which was clearly referring to the busway works as 'roadworks'. The council was prosecuted for matters concerning the safety of the busway itself, not the resultant traffic on (other) roads.
The question that was posed was about the local authority being prosecuted for accidents as a result of additional car journeys being taken.

Of course, that sort of ignores the fact that...

  • There's no evidence that more car journeys are being taken, just that fewer bus journeys are - as @Magdalia says, many local journeys may now be quicker by bike than bus and without detailed passenger flow information, it is impossible to say what the impact actually is
  • Even if more car journeys are being taken, the responsibility is still on the driver to drive in accordance with the law and not on the local authority
  • It would be impossible to differentiate an accident that takes place because of more traffic rather than one that may have occurred anyway
So to say...
The council needs to be prosecuted for the extra car traffic generated by their roadworks, and consequent additional road accidents.
... is a nonsense. The council is on the hook for the busway as they designed and maintained it and it was found that it was these issues were the cause and were so liable.

Outside the busway, most accidents will still be the result of driver actions and hence they are liable, not the council.
 

Magdalia

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What's that got to do with the question posed in post #157, which was clearly referring to the busway works as 'roadworks'. The council was prosecuted for matters concerning the safety of the busway itself, not the resultant traffic on (other) roads.
It has every relevance, because the work being done on the busway is to rectify where it was found to be in breach of the law. It is work that the council has to do to operate the busway within the law, and it could be prosecuted again if it continues to operate the busway without doing it.
 

Haywain

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Outside the busway, most accidents will still be the result of driver actions and hence they are liable, not the council.
Which is the point I was making. Thank you for the detail you have added.
it could be prosecuted again if it continues to operate the busway without doing it.
And that would be for a failure to make the busway safe, not for causing accidents on roads elsewhere.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It has every relevance, because the work being done on the busway is to rectify where it was found to be in breach of the law. It is work that the council has to do to operate the busway within the law, and it could be prosecuted again if it continues to operate the busway without doing it.
I don't think it does.

The council was rightly found to be responsible for the busway, the failings in design and/or the lack of response when issues were identified. So in terms of the Busway, you are absolutely right to say that the council is liable.

The post in question however refers to the council being liable for accidents away from the Busway should there have been an increase in car journeys as a consequence of people switching from bus to car whilst journey times have been extended during the remedial works. It is unlikely that the council can be prosecuted for more accidents taking place unless said accident was as a result of a failing by the council e.g. not repairing a pothole that had been reported
 

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