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"Mini Switzerland" trial - a good use of £12m?

Bletchleyite

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Key to success in Europe is integrated ticketing or actually one ticket that covers all modes of local transport. If this isn't delivering that its not going to deliver modal shift.

For all I agree with this in principle, if buses are going to be £2 for the foreseeable does it matter as much? Two quid each way for the connecting bus is noise level compared to the cost of the train fare or a couple of pints at the end to benefit from having gone on your walk by train instead of car. This is quite possibly why there isn't that much noise in London about bus-Tube-bus journeys costing more than just connectional Tube journeys of the same distance, something I think needs fixing but isn't really shouted about.

What is probably more important is robustness, i.e. the bus waiting for the train and there being enough slack in the journey back that the train won't be missed (I get that holding the train isn't going to be viable).
 
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stevieinselby

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What is probably more important is robustness, i.e. the bus waiting for the train and there being enough slack in the journey back that the train won't be missed (I get that holding the train isn't going to be viable).
That's absolutely the key thing.
I've been looking at the bus connection from Barnstaple to Combe Martin recently as I'll be making that journey in a few weeks.
It's an official Rail Link service advertised by GWR, and (mostly) timed to connect with the trains to/from Exeter.
But the 1728 arrival from Exeter is frequently late (I don't know why that journey is uniquely bad, but looking at RealTime Trains over the last couple of weeks it is very noticeable!), and that connects with the last bus of the day, due to depart at 1735 from a stop right outside the station where there is a clear view of the platform, so the bus driver can easily see if the train has arrived.
And it's really hit-and-miss whether the bus will wait for the train when it's running a few minutes late – sometimes it does, although that might just be coincidence that the bus was a couple of minutes late anyway or there was a delay in boarding and that forced it to be there when the late-running train arrived – but other times it seems to leave when the train is probably coming into sight into the platform ... and then it has 5 minutes stand time at the bus station in town, so it isn't like it can't accommodate a couple more minutes wait. (The bus goes out of service back to the depot after reaching Combe Martin, so this is one journey where it really doesn't matter if it runs a bit late).

When that's the last bus of the day, and the connection is so flaky, it's hard to imagine many regular passengers wanting to rely on it, and I can imagine that anyone with a choice will travel on an earlier train rather than risk being stranded or having to pay out for a taxi or call on a friend for a lift.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I think we can all agree with @edwin_m and @Bletchleyite that DRT is a red herring in all this. It doesn't work, as enough trials have demonstrated.

As I've said earlier, I'm actually very interested in seeing what this trial brings, what the learnings will be and what is considered to be "a success". However, it IS very interesting and whilst I might share some others concerns about whether the correct connections are being offered (and that many other areas of the Peak District will get little if any benefit), it is a trial and let's see what gives.

That's absolutely the key thing.
I've been looking at the bus connection from Barnstaple to Combe Martin recently as I'll be making that journey in a few weeks.
It's an official Rail Link service advertised by GWR, and (mostly) timed to connect with the trains to/from Exeter.
But the 1728 arrival from Exeter is frequently late (I don't know why that journey is uniquely bad, but looking at RealTime Trains over the last couple of weeks it is very noticeable!), and that connects with the last bus of the day, due to depart at 1735 from a stop right outside the station where there is a clear view of the platform, so the bus driver can easily see if the train has arrived.
And it's really hit-and-miss whether the bus will wait for the train when it's running a few minutes late – sometimes it does, although that might just be coincidence that the bus was a couple of minutes late anyway or there was a delay in boarding and that forced it to be there when the late-running train arrived – but other times it seems to leave when the train is probably coming into sight into the platform ... and then it has 5 minutes stand time at the bus station in town, so it isn't like it can't accommodate a couple more minutes wait. (The bus goes out of service back to the depot after reaching Combe Martin, so this is one journey where it really doesn't matter if it runs a bit late).
It's one of the challenges. When you have metro or tram systems plugging into high frequency local services, it's not an issue but where you have rural services and lower headways, what IS the window that you need. Seven minutes would seem to be a reasonable window but do you make it 12? In this case, you probably would give the discretion to wait 5 mins but there does have to be a cut off. There are generally many more bus passengers who aren't travelling by train so you don't want them stood in Barnstaple bus station wondering when their bus might arrive.
 

Bletchleyite

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There are generally many more bus passengers who aren't travelling by train so you don't want them stood in Barnstaple bus station wondering when their bus might arrive.

For a given route we would want to ask why that is, though. There will be routes that are clearly primarily for local direct journeys, such as most "suburb into town" ones in any town big enough to have a town centre worth visiting for the day or with a large supermarket or similar. But there will also be routes which only don't have much rail passenger usage because the connections are so poorly coordinated. Probably more of the former than the latter to be fair.
 

edwin_m

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In reference to the Transpeak connection at Matlock, this is of course much more complicated than a single (or even two) railway connection. There is an attempt to co-ordinate with the times of the sixes (which is a complicated corridor in itself) between Matlock & Bakewell where the two parallel and there are no other public transport links and at the Buxton end through Harpur Hill with the town services. None of this in insurmountable but it makes hitting one specific connection difficult and there is always that issue with train connections that they may change with little consultation with the operators at dates that do not match with bus service change dates (built around school term dates) that can make maintaining a connection more difficult.
I doubt many people would be travelling by train to Derby or Matlock with an ultimate destination beyond Bakewell, so co-ordination of the train with the Sixes would probably be sufficient here.

Another area this concept might work would be Saddleworth and the wider Tame Valley, from railheads at Mossley and Greenfield. There are several quite populous settlements a bit too far from the stations for easy access on foot, but within range of a bus that loops around every hour.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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For a given route we would want to ask why that is, though. There will be routes that are clearly primarily for local direct journeys, such as most "suburb into town" ones in any town big enough to have a town centre worth visiting for the day or with a large supermarket or similar. But there will also be routes which only don't have much rail passenger usage because the connections are so poorly coordinated. Probably more of the former than the latter to be fair.

Some may but in general, the appetite for bus/rail interchange is a) much greater in the South East (more trains, more congestion) and b) much greater on this forums :D

There may be some who can recall the dedicated rail bus feeder services at Blackwood and Maesteg - dedicated services, liveried vehicles, through ticketing etc. They don't exist but the parallel bus services that worked there continue. There's more demand for local shopping and services generally - that's the general rule (although some exceptions may exist).

This will be an interesting experiment and I'm looking forward to seeing it.
 

edwin_m

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Some may but in general, the appetite for bus/rail interchange is a) much greater in the South East (more trains, more congestion) and b) much greater on this forums :D

There may be some who can recall the dedicated rail bus feeder services at Blackwood and Maesteg - dedicated services, liveried vehicles, through ticketing etc. They don't exist but the parallel bus services that worked there continue. There's more demand for local shopping and services generally - that's the general rule (although some exceptions may exist).

This will be an interesting experiment and I'm looking forward to seeing it.
If it's done properly, then having several buses converging on the station to meet the train also means that passengers can interchange between those buses, creating journey opportunities that don't involve the train at all.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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If it's done properly, then having several buses converging on the station to meet the train also means that passengers can interchange between those buses, creating journey opportunities that don't involve the train at all.
Yeah...and if they all serve the town centre that tends to be the most populace spot, they can do it there as well. We all know that there are secondary nodes in towns and cities e.g. hospitals, universities but invariably the most intensive destination and interchange node tends to be town centres.

I'd be interested to see the number of bus to bus interchanges at spots like Liverpool South Parkway (which might have some) or Southmead Hospital in Bristol.
 

JKP

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Many years ago when I was involved carrying out on bus surveys of passengers on an advertised rail link service, the percentage of passengers transferring between bus and train was no more than 10%. All other passengers used the bus for other purposes, mostly shopping.
 

johncrossley

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If it's done properly, then having several buses converging on the station to meet the train also means that passengers can interchange between those buses, creating journey opportunities that don't involve the train at all.

Of course, it is common practice in many countries, not just Switzerland, for buses to go to the station as a matter of course. It is therefore normal that people transfer between buses at the railway station.
 

Magrar

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If this trial endorses the concept, I want to see from the data that the cost in waste (time, resources) to provide a single "memorable" departure time all day, early til late, is more than made up for by the increase in patronage that is directly attributable to clockface timetabling.

There is a reason why such things are only present off peak in the vast majority - that cost is real. So as a "selling point", it is no such thing if the person being sold it, has no clue what it actually costs to deliver. Specifically in a system where buses are literally being expected to integrate with trains in really quite tight windows.

It is clear government policy now, for good reason, to end the use of gimmicks and hidden charges, in every day costs of living.
 
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Re-reading the plan, I am having real difficulty in seeing how it is actually going to deliver the easy interchanges described, even when everything is running to time. Is there some other documentation that I haven't seen?

AIUI, the plan does not involve modifications to roads (beyond the odd bit of paving and a shelter at bus stops). So it doesn't look like we are looking at the Swiss picture of a railway station with off-road stops immediately beside the entrance.

At Grindleford, the proposed route diagram (p19 of the plan) shows a dotted line from station to buses. It is more like 0.5km than the 1.75km marked, but it renders tight connections impossible. And I wouldn't recommend the walk to those of a nervous disposition during hours of darkness.

At Hathersage, the route diagram shows a dotted line (no distance indicated) from station to buses. For buses to Eyam and Bakewell, it looks as if buses might manage the modest detour via the station forecourt. So presumably the dotted line is for route 272 (Sheffield-Hathersage-Castleton): unless that adds a detour via the station (in which case why the dotted line?), passengers face an 8 minute walk to the main road stops in the centre of the village.

At Hope, the plan shows a 275m walk to the bus (I reckon it is not that bad - nearer 200m).

At Bamford, unless the plans is for buses to/from the south to make a 345-degree turn onto/from the A6013, then passengers using north-south buses will have a similar 200m-odd walk between train and bus. The diagram suggests no diversion for east-west buses - passengers connecting with the train from these services would have something like a 400m walk to east-west bus stops on the A6187.

Those walking times really matter. Even for a 200m walk (half the length of an HS2 train!), allowing for the less-agile to make the connection I reckon you need to allow an extra three minutes each way, taking a four-minute "connection window" up to 10 minutes.

That changes things a lot. If I am a passenger on a through bus, I will tolerate a four minute delay to my journey at a "hub" station even if nobody actually uses the connection opportunity that run. But 10 minutes feels like an age to be sitting on a stationary bus at a stop, especially if it turns out that nobody has got off or on that time. And the balance of benefit between passengers now able to make a reasonably tight train-bus connection vs the time wasted for through passengers on the bus may not look like a net benefit.

There is also perhaps a safety issue of buses making prolonged connection waits at a main-road bus stop. We can expect cars to queue behind a bus while it stops to unload and then load already-waiting passengers. But we can't expect cars to queue for many minutes as the bus waits to make connections. Are there more stringent planning requirements for main-road locations which will be bus stands rather than mere stops?
 

RELL6L

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I have just returned from a few days in the real Switzerland- celebrating the fourth anniversary of my bus pass - and it is just so different. We went on a few trains - highly scenic by the way - with many sections of single track with passing loops, loads of level crossings, both things we seem to find really difficult. Also different challenges with sections of track using cogs and even a 10 minute pause for a change of gauge! And absolutely everything spot on time throughout. One or two pauses for a minute or two in single track sections clearly as scheduled and most routes have fast trains travelling some distance plus short distance stopping trains. Most stations with connecting buses which were at the station for the trains. Pretty much all on a regular clock face pattern in the hot summers and freezing winters.

I hate to be negative but there’s no way we can do this. We can’t get single track right. Level crossings are a problem everywhere as we seem to insist on assuming everyone is stupid. There are not enough places set up for bus connections. We have interminable road works, badly planned and uncoordinated. And this experiment is in an area where traffic levels are hugely variable.

Let’s see what happens, service improvements in the area will be welcome, but I can’t see the clock face train connection idea working. Not sure I can think of anywhere else better either.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not sure I can think of anywhere else better either.

Windermere is the obvious one given that it's an in-and-out branch line (though it's fairly well integrated now, you'd just be changing timings to connect better and having buses wait for trains, plus extend more routes back there e.g. the 516) as well as giving consideration to operating hours e.g. adding Friday evening late runs to allow for weekends away. Betws y Coed is another one that's similar - it's mid route but the connecting demand will generally mostly come from the north.
 

edwin_m

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Betws y Coed is another one that's similar - it's mid route but the connecting demand will generally mostly come from the north.
It would work both ways - the buses have to be there whenever the train passes through in either direction, so would allow for boarding towards one direction and alighting from the other.
 
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It would work both ways - the buses have to be there whenever the train passes through in either direction, so would allow for boarding towards one direction and alighting from the other.
I have read the suggestion that where there is a clear tidal flow, the Swiss will align rhe buses to the major rail flow (flipping the pattern some time between the two peaks), with DRT-style services for the minor flow.
 

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