And therefore if they did make the change, they would be admitting it existed and would be liable to pay out?
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Collective competition claim against Govia Thameslink Railway
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Egg Centric
Established Member
It certainly seems clear cut when put this way but there is surely a reason that no one is funding it any more, which may or may not be to do with prospects for success. In simple terms what were the arguments by GTR the other way?
Good point, but maybe they could say it is precautionary just in case. Either way there has now almost been as much time since the first filing as there was between that and the issue arising [30 Sept 2015 per the claim].
I am not a lawyer, but the idea that maintaining competition prevents a single TOC running multiple brands, yet if all the TOCs are part of a government monopoly, competition rules don't apply, seems just a little Alice in Wonderland to me.
This is what puzzles me. I know nothing about NRCoT, the TSA or collective cases but based on the comments here it sounded like this was clearly not allowed, so in my naive mind, I would have thought this was an easy win for a law firm; guaranteed win and legal fees. So what am I missing?
I think some posters on the forum tend to post their opinions with an air of authority such that there can’t be any disagreement with their interpretation.
Haywain
Veteran Member
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Are you referring to me?
There are plenty of arguments put forward, but perhaps the major one is that competition law doesn't apply to a company that does not have commercial autonomy separate from the government:
This does show how this is definitely a non-issue post nationalization, the question in this part is how much autonomy in these areas did GTR have under regulation of fares and the operating agreements they had with the DfT.
Egg Centric
Established Member
Thanks. I see that that quote is from a court transcript related to this.
Seems clear to me that this is something I don't have enough understanding to actually have an opinion on who is right and wrong. I guess that's why it was going to court in the first place.
Swedenorer
Member
For me that was the nub of the issue and it always seemed to me that eventually - all things otherwise remaining the same - that GTR would have to argue that it was not one TOC but a group of the same. Now I'm not saying that this would have succeeded but in any case like this you never know but I think I can suspect the line of argument. The other route of argument would end up with some lengthy debate on the definition of 'Brand'. I wonder of some took comfort from the fact that apparently it suited GTR to back down when challenged on this by individuals but again I suspect this would alwys have been done on a gesture of goodwill basis. In a way it's disappointing that apparently we'll never now know what arguments GTR were going to run I think it would have been fascinating.
The NRCoT define what a TOC is and if they define Gatwick Express to be a TOC, then for the purpose of that agreement it is a TOC.
The TSA and NRCoT are different agreements between different parties and are not to be read together.
Haywain
Veteran Member
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Indeed.
They define Gatwick Express as one of the trading names of GTR.