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16-17 Savers will no longer expire at 18th birthdays

kkong

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i understand not giving the young scot discount to non scottish residents thats fair enough, but thats still no excuse for not allowing the 16-17 saver on scotrail in my opinion

The DfT (UK Government) introduced the 16-17 Saver in 2019.

By that time, Scotland already had the Young Scot card.

I assume the UK & Scottish Governments either didn't want to make (or couldn't agree to make) an agreement whereby the additional discount offered by the 16-17 Saver would be valid on ScotRail & Caledonian Sleeper.

I expect the Scottish Government would have been asking for a financial contribution to allow this.
 
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81A

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From the perspective of Transport Scotland, this is an intentional feature - why should a Scottish-funded discount be valid for those who/whose parents aren't paying the higher Scottish taxes? It is, in effect, a tourist tax on 16-18yos, which helps to subsidise the discount(s) for Scottish people.
Fair enough, but the issue is that removing the 16-25 validity for 16-17 year olds creates an odd situation where things get cheaper when becoming a full adult (since non-Scottish 16-17 year olds will be paying full adult ScotRail fares whilst non-Scottish 18-25 year olds get 1/3 off with the 18-25 card).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It is valid in Scotland just not on ScotRail a small but important difference
What happens when someone buys a 16-17 discounted flexible ticket for a journey that is also served by an English TOC (such as Edinburgh to Inverness) and then uses a ScotRail service? Are they simply treated as having no ticket (similar to the Railcard discounted Anytime situation that has gotten so much attention recently)?
 
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Mcr Warrior

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What happens when someone buys a 16-17 discounted flexible ticket for a journey that is also served by an English TOC (such as Edinburgh to Inverness) and then uses a ScotRail service? Are they simply treated as having no ticket (similar to the Railcard discounted Anytime situation that has gotten so much attention recently)?
Discounted ticket(s) with a 16-17 Saver discount applied aren't valid on ScotRail (or Caledonian Sleeper). Good question as to what should then happen if someone does use such a ticket.
 

318266

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i understand not giving the young scot discount to non scottish residents thats fair enough, but thats still no excuse for not allowing the 16-17 saver on scotrail in my opinion

I shall take the assumption that based upon your good Scottish username that you are in fact Scottish. The reason for this is (as far as I understand) because the government didn't want to pay for two overlapping schemes at once, and prefers to operate independently without such schemes being imposed upon it. Also, the scheme is broader than the 16-17 Saver scheme, covering 18 year olds regardless of whether they had applied for their discount before or after their journey. The discount is also automatically bundled with the free bus travel card, which also gives a wide range of discounts itself (e.g. 10% off at Scottish Co-ops), which are not available to those not resident in Scotland. Therefore, it was considered uneconomical to raise the discount to match the Saver.

Fair enough, but the issue is that removing the 16-25 validity for 16-17 year olds creates an odd situation where things get cheaper when becoming a full adult (since non-Scottish 16-17 year olds will be paying full adult ScotRail fares whilst non-Scottish 18-25 year olds get 1/3 off with the 18-25 card).

I suspect this particular decision is from the UK Department for Transport, and considering their well-renowned competence likely entirely forgot about this. I suspect they themselves also don't care - not their trains, not their problem.

What happens when someone buys a 16-17 discounted flexible ticket for a journey that is also served by an English TOC (such as Edinburgh to Inverness) and then uses a ScotRail service? Are they simply treated as having no ticket (similar to the Railcard discounted Anytime situation that has gotten so much attention recently)?

You would be treated the same as if you had no ticket at all. I imagine a number of inspectors would be more understanding, and therefore issue an excess to an undiscounted fare. However, they'd be well within their right to charge a minimum fare or full undiscounted Anytime Day Single, whichever is dearer.
 

thedbdiboy

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The DfT (UK Government) introduced the 16-17 Saver in 2019.

By that time, Scotland already had the Young Scot card.

I assume the UK & Scottish Governments either didn't want to make (or couldn't agree to make) an agreement whereby the additional discount offered by the 16-17 Saver would be valid on ScotRail & Caledonian Sleeper.

I expect the Scottish Government would have been asking for a financial contribution to allow this.
Whether something applies to the UK (which includes Northern Ireland) Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland) or country specific will depend on the powers attached to the relevant legislation. Just because the DfT is based in Westminster it does not make it the 'UK Government' for transport matters.

The 16-17 Saver was specifically funded as an English and Welsh scheme. Scotland was already funding its own scheme so it is probably not surprising that they did not want to fund the 16-17 card in Scotland.
 
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I shall take the assumption that based upon your good Scottish username that you are in fact Scottish. The reason for this is (as far as I understand) because the government didn't want to pay for two overlapping schemes at once, and prefers to operate independently without such schemes being imposed upon it. Also, the scheme is broader than the 16-17 Saver scheme, covering 18 year olds regardless of whether they had applied for their discount before or after their journey. The discount is also automatically bundled with the free bus travel card, which also gives a wide range of discounts itself (e.g. 10% off at Scottish Co-ops), which are not available to those not resident in Scotland. Therefore, it was considered uneconomical to raise the discount to match the Saver.



I suspect this particular decision is from the UK Department for Transport, and considering their well-renowned competence likely entirely forgot about this. I suspect they themselves also don't care - not their trains, not their problem.



You would be treated the same as if you had no ticket at all. I imagine a number of inspectors would be more understanding, and therefore issue an excess to an undiscounted fare. However, they'd be well within their right to charge a minimum fare or full undiscounted Anytime Day Single, whichever is dearer.
I see I understand a bit more now, It would be lovely for them to (and railcards accepted for roundabouts SPT!!!!) but until both our governments get their act together I doubt it would ever happen
 

318266

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I see I understand a bit more now, It would be lovely for them to (and railcards accepted for roundabouts SPT!!!!) but until both our governments get their act together I doubt it would ever happen

It's also worth considering that the Young Scot card is free, whereas the 16-17 Saver is £35 per year. That means you would have to spend at least £105 per year on rail tickets alone to not have actually spent more than if you just used your Young Scot Card. The Roundabout is already cheaper than some undiscounted point-to-point fares, so I would be very surprised if it became railcard discountable.
 

SECR 65

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It's frustrating that I've purchased a 16-17 saver age when age 16 1/2, which will expire age 17 1/2. Then, I either have to wait 6 months without a railcard until the day before my 18th birthday, or I have to purchase a railcard age 17 1/2, and again age day-before-18, if that's even possible? Stil lots of money down the drain...
 

Haywain

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It's frustrating that I've purchased a 16-17 saver age when age 16 1/2, which will expire age 17 1/2. Then, I either have to wait 6 months without a railcard until the day before my 18th birthday, or I have to purchase a railcard age 17 1/2, and again age day-before-18, if that's even possible? Stil lots of money down the drain...
Money down the drain? If it's going to result in a significant savings it isn't.
 

Bletchleyite

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Money down the drain? If it's going to result in a significant savings it isn't.

Quite. Most frequent rail users should probably do the trick usual with the 26-30 (formerly the 16-25) and buy one a day before their 18th birthday for maximum savings, thus everyone will purchase three in their period of eligibility to maximise savings.

It was why the "free 3 month extension" given in the late 1990s was of no value whatsoever.
 

blimmo

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Quite. Most frequent rail users should probably do the trick usual with the 26-30 (formerly the 16-25) and buy one a day before their 18th birthday for maximum savings, thus everyone will purchase three in their period of eligibility to maximise savings.

It was why the "free 3 month extension" given in the late 1990s was of no value whatsoever.
I think as @SECR 65 notes that can feel pretty bad if you're being required to "waste" validity. Given Railcards are all about manipulating people psychologically you'd have thought they'd make it a bit smoother.
 

Coolzac

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It looks like Andy Burnham is considering a national Railcard. I think this could be a major vote winner and could really benefit passenger numbers. Finances I am not so sure!
 

styles

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I think as @SECR 65 notes that can feel pretty bad if you're being required to "waste" validity. Given Railcards are all about manipulating people psychologically you'd have thought they'd make it a bit smoother.
To an extent, yes, and it's certainly nonsensical to call it a 26-30 Railcard when it's valid until the day before your 32nd Birthday. But I imagine a lot of people buying them in this way are saving a considerable amount.

Of course all of this just points to the stupidity of the Railcards system. A 26-30 Railcard valid until the day before you turn 32 is really a 26-31 Railcard at best.

There's a simpler solution which is just to say if you're 26-30 you get a discount on your ticket, no Railcard required, but you may be asked to prove your age. Or indeed a single national railcard.
 

A S Leib

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It looks like Andy Burnham is considering a national Railcard. I think this could be a major vote winner and could really benefit passenger numbers. Finances I am not so sure!
Quote from the article:
Government insiders confirmed that conversations are ongoing regarding the extension of other railcards, though talks remain at a "very early stage". Officials are examining a variety of options to address the steep cost of fares that go beyond the rail freeze implemented earlier this year, according to The Mirror.

It comes as two prominent left-wing think tanks are now calling on Mr Burnham to transform the network south east railcard into a nationwide scheme.
(I would copy more, but the MEN website isn't very conductive for that, especially on mobile.)
 

yorksrob

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It looks like Andy Burnham is considering a national Railcard. I think this could be a major vote winner and could really benefit passenger numbers. Finances I am not so sure!

Fingers crossed !

We pay a lot for the railway as it is. Any additional funding to make it more financially accessible would be relatively small - afterall, there's little political capital in funding a "rich man's toy" to quote a previous transport secretary.
 

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