Are you suggesting it is going to happen?
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TransPennine Express checking the appetite for charging for seat reservations?
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flitwickbeds
Member
- Joined
- 19 Apr 2017
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- 768
I have zero inside knowledge but I wouldn't put it past DfT/a TOC to try it... it works for the low cost airlines...
If TPE are foolish enough to make the same mistake as GWR and National Express East Anglia/East Coast (NXEA/NXEC), then - as with those failed attempts - it would be quickly dropped.
A small selection of quotes from previous threads (my emphasis in bold below):
If anyone wants to believe otherwise, then that's absolutely fine; we can agree to disagree!
But I am standing by what I said above, having carefully considered the pros and cons of the topic over a considerable period of time, and having knowledge of how previous attempts were made and why they were so unsuccessful.
If anyone at TPE thinks they can make this work, then my message to them is: by all means try it and see how long it is before you are forced to concede it was a mistake.
But I predict it won't come to that; there are surely too many sensible people at TPE who will prevent this idea from happening.
Charlie978
Member
I was travelling in Austria this summer and on the Munich to Verona trains they have digital reservations, which move to available after about 15 minutes of leaving the reservation departure station. This could be a good way of reducing the ‘waste’ reservations as as long as you board at the correct station the seat is reserved for you to sit in, but if the reservation is not used it appears as a free seat to other passengers.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Depends on if some clueless civil servant in the DfT deems it such a wonderful idea and overrules all those who know better.
If someone genuinely needs a seat due to disability then a reservation ought to be free. I don't think that would be hard to implement as it is done in very many places.
D1537
Established Member
I'm unsure why TPE would have sent round a questionnaire with possible reservation price points to their customers (I got one as well) unless they are at least considering it.
See post #62 above.
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If that happens, it will not last long, and will go the same way as the GWR/NXEA/NXEC implementations, and be quickly reversed. The reasons previous attempts failed are still present, and aren't going away.
This would open the floodgates; they would have no any means/ability/justification to actually validate the legitimacy of any such requests, so anyone making a request on that basis would have to be accommodated.
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Not if you limited it to Disabled Railcard holders or people making assistance bookings, that's quite easy to implement at the point of booking.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The aviation industry is experiencing increasing issues with people booking assistance when they don’t need it. It’s shown on social media as a “hack” for getting priority boarding and avoiding the worst of the airline baggage rules. I don’t know what miracle happens in the sky, they can’t walk on to an aircraft but they’re cured by the time they arrive at the other end.
We see the same thing with theme parks offering queue jumping services to disabled people and suddenly everyone is neurodivergent.
Would the railway be any different?
I noticed when I used TVM to buy a Wigan to Preston, it spat out a seat reservation, I didnt even go to my reserved seat.
Quite often I just go to the unreserved carriage.
SWR have no seat reservations even on the long routes, people seem to cope.
Quite often I just go to the unreserved carriage.
SWR have no seat reservations even on the long routes, people seem to cope.
Has the railway actually experienced a similar phenomenon? Genuine question, as I don't know. The incentives for cheating an airline or theme park seem a lot stronger than avoiding paying two quid for a seat on a train.
The railway could just apply any exemption to tickets booked in conjunction with a Disabled Railcard. Which has specific eligibility criteria avoiding the need to check every time someone buys a ticket.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Is there anyone who's had this and hasn't completed it yet, who could screenshot the questions and post them while they complete it? It would be interesting to see exactly how they are framing it.
VT 390
Established Member
- Joined
- 7 Dec 2018
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- 1,730
This is similar to how Transport for Wales/Arriva Trains Wales used to operate (without the charge).
I can see an argument for both sides as you could say that with a flexible ticket if the service is full you could wait for the next which you could not do with an Advance and flexible ticket holders will be more likely to not show and use the reservation. On the other hand I understand your point that if you are paying more people want a seat and the Advance ticket holders are getting a discount (even though a standard ticket does not guarantee a seat).
I think it will depend what pricing model TPE use in the future; if it is similar to LNER then the majority of people will be on Advances so specific seat reservations make more sense but if the primarily operate through flexible tickets reservations make more sense as charged extras.
Bishops
Member
Fair, but then you are sitting in unreserved seats that people later on in the journey cant use and you still have the reserved seats showing as reserved
D1537
Established Member
1. How often do you travel by train? (> weekly / weekly / monthly / a few times a year / less often)
2. What is the main purpose of your journeys? (Commuting / business / business / leisure / Visiting friends or family / Airport travel / Other)
3. When did you last travel with TPE? (last week / last month / last 2-3 months / last 4-6 months / > 6 months)
4. What was your most recent TPE journey (enter origin and dest)
5. Did you reserve a seat on this train? (Yes / No / Can't remember)
6. How valuable would you find the ability to choose seat from a seat map before you travel? (Very valuable / valuable / Somewhat / Not at all)
7. If you were able to choose your seat, would this make you more likely to travel by rail? (Significantly / Likely / Somewhat likely / No)
Then
For each price given, would you choose the option to select a seat from a seat map when booking? (Yes / No / Not sure)
- Free
- £1
- £2
- £3
- £4
- £5
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Right now, there's no incentive to game the assistance system and so people generally don't do it. If you start charging for reservations then you create an incentive.
When National Express charged for seat reservations they charged £5 and, with inflation, that would now be roughly £8-£10. Therefore, I'd expect any charging scheme to start at around that price point. But even at a fiver, if you give a free reservation for an assistance passenger and their companion then you're saving someone twenty quid on a return journey. Suddenly swinging the lead a bit starts to be worth it.
Not everyone who has a Disabled Railcard has a physical impairment and not everyone who has a physical impairment is eligible for a Disabled Railcard.
trainophile
Established Member
Further to my comment above about being auto-reserved into a seat where the adjacent one is already taken, on thinking about it I guess it’s to save seat clusters/pairs for people travelling together. It’s a bit overkill though, as it’s natural to prefer a bit of personal space, so most people would seek out a seat alone.
i certainly wouldn’t pay a fiver for a reservation, some of my Advance with railcard tickets are less than that or pretty close!
i certainly wouldn’t pay a fiver for a reservation, some of my Advance with railcard tickets are less than that or pretty close!
I don't see why that matters. Most Disabled Railcard holders don't need a companion with them but the benefit is extended anyway to give all holders a discount on a companion to avoid a pointless means test. That's a lot more valuable than a few quid on a seat reservation.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Thanks for that. The way I read it it is very specifically about an upsell of seat selection, not about charging for reservations in general. Do others agree?
That's certainly a possibility; if so, whoever came up with this either doesn't realise that some websites already offer this facility for free, or perhaps they hope their customers won't realise that
Egg Centric
Established Member
Sometimes this is done just to shut up an idiot manager/civil servant, or "blue sky thinking", or lizardman testing, or other reasons. It doesn't necessarily mean it's being seriously considered.
That doesn't feel unreasonable to me. I don't really subscribe to the every advance gets a reservation thing anyway, for relatively short journeys (let's say under about an hour, so London to Oxford/ Swindon as examples) having lots more unreserved seating would be more useful than a load of unoccupied reserved seats.
YorksLad12
Established Member
I've been catching the 17.21 from York back to Leeds, it's usually a 6-car arrangement with First Class appearing willy-nilly.
What I've noticed is that at the very front, which can be coach A or coach C, there are reserved seats that aren't taken up. It occurred to me that people, especially in small groups (with small kids) aren't standing in the right place for the train (even though it's shown on the screens) and just grab a table or whatever that isn't reserved.
In the GNER days, before proper seat selection on the website, I'd sometimes be booked into a seat I didn't like and would move; but I'd normally check with the guard that it was okay to do so, as the reservation was printed on my ticket. One of us would pull out the paper slip to clear the seat - harder to do with an electronic system, of course.
What I've noticed is that at the very front, which can be coach A or coach C, there are reserved seats that aren't taken up. It occurred to me that people, especially in small groups (with small kids) aren't standing in the right place for the train (even though it's shown on the screens) and just grab a table or whatever that isn't reserved.
In the GNER days, before proper seat selection on the website, I'd sometimes be booked into a seat I didn't like and would move; but I'd normally check with the guard that it was okay to do so, as the reservation was printed on my ticket. One of us would pull out the paper slip to clear the seat - harder to do with an electronic system, of course.
D1537
Established Member
The thing with 2x185 pairs is that one unit (the front one, A/B/C) is able to be reserved and the other one is completely unreserved. What happens though (and I've seen this a number of times) is that people get into the wrong unit, can't find their reservation, and just end up sitting anywhere in the unreserved unit.
The other thing on the Manchester Airport trains is that people book seats from MIA and then (a) completely underestimate how long it's going to take them to get from plane landing to train, or (b) the plane is late. So you end up with loads of untaken reservations in A/B/C from the airport. However, when we travelled from Piccadilly to York the other week, it was noticeable that people did look at the reservations, saw they were empty seats reserved from MIA, and sat in them.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The front three carriages are furthest away from the barriers at Manchester Airport station, so it’s not a surprise.
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Making people with physical impairments pay to sit down is a challenging sell from a PR perspective.
At least Ryanair guarantee you a seat on the plane.
The NXEC implementation was perverse; it gave the reservation away free of charge on an AP ticket, and charged for it on a flexible ticket. So, in other words, the thing of value (a guaranteed seat) was made a perk of buying cheap, and a cost of buying the higher price ticket.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Which does make a bit of sense when you consider that the railway likes Advance tickets - it's long been a big part of the approach on the ECML.
Possibly - but when the effect is to discount the thing you are trying to sell as an added value product, it's perverse.
For me, the value in a reservation is the certainty of a seat. That applies for journeys of almost any length and, as the railway doesn't know me from Adam at the point of purchase, that value applies whether the journey is 5 or 500 miles. It also doesn't matter at this point why I want the seat - whether I'm unable to stand at all, or just want to be able to sit and read. For that reason, and regardless of the operational advantages that staff report, I've a problem with advance tickets that tie my travel to a (potentially busy) train without the quid pro quo of a seat (looking at you, EMR!).
The railways have not really got their heads around this, and I'm not surprised that it's an operator whose services provide both long distance and local travel that is testing the boundaries.
While there are edge cases (e.g. BRI-BPW) where reservations probably are inappropriate, I think the response needs to be to focus on the reserved seat being of value, and how that forms part of the overall package. And, no, I don't trust any deal in which the reservation is charged for but the ticket price is reduced - we can all see where that will go!