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Trains all at a stand in the Manchester area... (Thursday afternoon 06AUG2026)

Belperpete

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But of course, this cost money, so, because it was hardly ever used, some of the emergency panels were taken out of use.
Emergency panels intended to be used by suitability trained local station staff. The main problems was that they were so rarely used that staff were not familiar with using them, and the reduction in station staff meant that there weren't the staff available to use them (bearing in mind you would need to ensure that there was at least one suitably trained and experienced member of station staff rostered for every shift).

Suspect that these days there would be an issue with getting TOC staff operating NR signalling panels.

BR HQ issued an instruction that emergency panels were not to be provided on future schemes. However, at least one region got around this by calling them technicians panels.
 
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sharpener

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Backup generators do seem to be a very unreliable form of backup. Unless you have the generator running continuously, you can never be sure it is actually going to work when you need it. Surely something as critical as a ROC should have something better. Such as a feed from the traction supply.

We don't know the generator didn't work. As @Annetts key says, it takes about a minute to start and be ready to accept your load. Maybe switching in a feed from the traction supply would be quicker but you still have to do it on a break-before-make basis or your traction supply is now feeding the SPENW fault which will not end well.

So in either case you need a UPS in addition. Unless all the equipment supplied will boot up and reconfigure itself automatically...
 

Annetts key

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Emergency panels intended to be used by suitability trained local station staff. The main problems was that they were so rarely used that staff were not familiar with using them, and the reduction in station staff meant that there weren't the staff available to use them (bearing in mind you would need to ensure that there was at least one suitably trained and experienced member of station staff rostered for every shift).

Suspect that these days there would be an issue with getting TOC staff operating NR signalling panels.

BR HQ issued an instruction that emergency panels were not to be provided on future schemes. However, at least one region got around this by calling them technicians panels.
The two emergency panels on my former area were always worked by signallers. The same signallers that worked in the PSB (they drove to site in a company van). It was operations that instructed the maintenance techs to disable one of the emergency panels. The other was removed when a new TDM was installed (because it could only cope with switching a positive feed compared to the older TDM which could switch the negative feed, Western put the relay contacts in the N50) as the alterations to keep it were considered too expensive. It also did not comply with current standards.
 

Annetts key

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So in either case you need a UPS in addition. Unless all the equipment supplied will boot up and reconfigure itself automatically...
Some signalling equipment really does not like power blips. Although the equipment is designed to auto-restart, not everything does. Or if it does, it may not start correctly. And sometimes, the power blipping will blow a fuse or cause a MCB to trip out.

Even worse things happen if the generator control system fails to properly control the generator, ask me how I know...

Now, I don't know what happened at Manchester, unless someone from that area provides some information, this is all just speculation.

But it's likely that if the UPS was not working correctly, the power blip caused some of the signalling equipment to fail (as in fail to work when the power came back). To restart the failed systems, it likely required the maintenance technicians to attend and maybe they had to replace some of the equipment.

That would explain why some work stations were back working before others.
 

mrmartin

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Something has went catastrophically wrong here. The generator is basically irrelevant. In a proper datacentre you'd expect UPS to last for probably 10-15mins regardless. So a 90s power outage should be completely covered by UPS.

_even worse_ it seems the core "servers" themselves didn't have an additional UPS covering them., which I would expect (imagine the building power doesn't go off but a cable fault meant the racks that control the signals lose power). It's one thing having the buildings AC, lifts etc and terminals go off but to lose all signalling servers is another.

Someone also pointed out on YouTube the generator they do have looks far past its best on Google Maps:
 

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Belperpete

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No such assumption. Only that there would be a functional UPS that would keep all the plates spinning meanwhile, which clearly didn't happen.
In this case, the generator appears to have failed, the UPS probably did what it was designed for. You can't expect a UPS to maintain a supply indefinitely if the backup fails to kick in.

SP Electricity NW released a statement, detailing a power outage which had affected "around 5,000 customers in the Manchester area at 1:40pm today - all power was fully restored within 90 seconds," the company said.
That the DNO supply was restored within 90 seconds is irrelevant. As I explained, you don't switch back to a failed supply as soon as it is restored, as it may not be stable. Switch back is usually initiated manually. Otherwise, if you switch a large load onto an unstable supply, you can make the situation worse.
 

mrmartin

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You sure about that? I believe UPS generally switches back to mains power automatically if the incoming power is restored and stable for a period of time (60s or so). Especially if there is no other power to restore to (ie a generator?).
 

Belperpete

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Something has went catastrophically wrong here. The generator is basically irrelevant. In a proper datacentre you'd expect UPS to last for probably 10-15mins regardless. So a 90s power outage should be completely covered by UPS.
As I keep pointing out, however long the power outage lasted for is irrelevent. This is not a small domestic load. With a large load, you don't switch back as soon as the power comes back on. You need to be sure that the supply is both stable and reliable, so the switch back will usually be initiated manually.

The UPS is required to cover the time taken to switch over to the backup generator. After that, the generator should keep the system powered until such time as the system is manually switched back to the main supply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

You sure about that? I believe UPS generally switches back to mains power automatically if the incoming power is restored and stable for a period of time (60s or so). Especially if there is no other power to restore to (ie a generator?).
For small domestic type loads, yes they will switch back automatically. But with industrial loads, it is common for the switch back to be manually initiated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

_even worse_ it seems the core "servers" themselves didn't have an additional UPS covering them., which I would expect (imagine the building power doesn't go off but a cable fault meant the racks that control the signals lose power). It's one thing having the buildings AC, lifts etc and terminals go off but to lose all signalling servers is another.
I am not sure that things like building supplies would be on a UPS. If they are, you wouldn't have one UPS feeding another, you would have separate UPS for critical and non-critical supplies.

With a traditional signalling control centre, there would be several UPSs. There would be one (or more) for the computer based interlockings, another for the VDU control system, another for IT, etc. Basically, each equipment supplier would provide a UPS for their equipment. With the ROC architecture that I recall seeing, NR seemed to have decided that they would provide a common UPS for all the "critical equipment". No doubt this saved space and money, but it did seem to be putting all their eggs in one basket. But there again, if you lost all the interlockings, there would be little point in having a working control system, and vice versa.
 
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Annetts key

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You sure about that? I believe UPS generally switches back to mains power automatically if the incoming power is restored and stable for a period of time (60s or so). Especially if there is no other power to restore to (ie a generator?).
The UPS in railway signalling power systems is normally AFTER the generator. If the generator starts and takes the load (the UPS, which then supplies the signalling), it will not see the mains (DNO) supply, as it will be being supplied by the generator.

I don't know about the specific arrangements in Manchester ROC, but the supply to the signalling doesn’t normally only supply the interlocking computers and workstations. It also supplies the local colour light signals, track circuits or axle counters, point machines and everything else.

As I said earlier, we can speculate till the cows come home...
 

mrmartin

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The UPS in railway signalling power systems is normally AFTER the generator. If the generator starts and takes the load (the UPS, which then supplies the signalling), it will not see the mains (DNO) supply, as it will be being supplied by the generator.

I don't know about the specific arrangements in Manchester ROC, but the supply to the signalling doesn’t normally only supply the interlocking computers and workstations. It also supplies the local colour light signals, track circuits or axle counters, point machines and everything else.

As I said earlier, we can speculate till the cows come home...
There's surely no way that they're powering the lights etc 50 miles away from this facility??? The AC losses involved would be absolutely insane.
But there again, if you lost all the interlockings, there would be little point in having a working control system, and vice versa.
Surely not? If you kept interlocking but lost the control system itself then at least you havent lost all the positions of the trains (etc) and it's far easier for the control system to boot up again.
I am not sure that things like building supplies would be on a UPS.
Tbh I'm more familiar with data centres but it is pretty terrifying if this isn't the case. You need building HVAC on it otherwise stuff starts overheating and you get cascading failures (the most common failure type in datacentres isn't power failing, it's HVAC going down and temps rising steadily and causing outages that way).

In a quality datacentre you would aim for 2N, so 2x UPS for the entire building capacity, 2x HVAC, 2x generator capacity for the entire building, etc etc. Increasingly many (most?) have natural gas generators as well as diesel.

This is for huge amounts of load as well (100MW+). Given this facility was only on a 6kV feed from what I've read it's unlikely to be much over 1MW of capacity, so absolutely trivial in comparison to provide 2N redundancy. Even multihour battery backup would be cheap to provide these days.

Really quite eye opening how poor rail systems are in comparison to data centres, especially given how critical they are and the enormous liability payments that NR has if it fails like today in comparison to datacentres.

The servers I rent for low 100s a month in telehouse in London have dramatically better resilience than NR has specified here it seems.
 

Belperpete

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The UPS in railway signalling power systems is normally AFTER the generator. If the generator starts and takes the load (the UPS, which then supplies the signalling), it will not see the mains (DNO) supply, as it will be being supplied by the generator.
If they have followed this traditional practice, then almost certainly once the switchover to generator has been made, the switch back to DNO will be manual.

I don't know about the specific arrangements in Manchester ROC, but the supply to the signalling doesn’t normally only supply the interlocking computers and workstations. It also supplies the local colour light signals, track circuits or axle counters, point machines and everything else.
Agreed that with a traditional signalling centre or PSB, it will also supply the external feeders to the lineside equipment, and the generator will backup those supplies. But I haven't seen any cases where the external feeders have been fed from a UPS. You would need a fairly substantial UPS to be capable of driving several point machines simultaneously. The UPSs are only used to power the computer-based kit inside the control centre.

I am not aware of any ROCs that feed lineside signalling equipment in the same way. I get the impression that NR see them more as "computer centres" than "signalboxes", and so nothing to do with "S&T". In one case, we had great difficulty persuading the building manager to even allocate us space for interlockings. And then we had the gall to ask for some power supplies for them....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There's surely no way that they're powering the lights etc 50 miles away from this facility??? The AC losses involved would be absolutely insane.
You seem to have missed the word "local" in Annett's message. Traditional 650v signalling feeders can stretch considerable distances, and I suspect the latest HV 3 phase feeders even further, but I doubt 50 miles. Remote areas will have their own supply points.

Surely not? If you kept interlocking but lost the control system itself then at least you havent lost all the positions of the trains (etc) and it's far easier for the control system to boot up again.

Interlockings do not remember information like train positions, they repeat the state of track circuits and axle counters from the lineside equipment to the indication system. The information is constantly being refreshed, and there is a requirement that any change of state must be indicated within a very tight time limit.

Tbh I'm more familiar with data centres but it is pretty terrifying if this isn't the case. You need building HVAC on it otherwise stuff starts overheating and you get cascading failures (the most common failure type in datacentres isn't power failing, it's HVAC going down and temps rising steadily and causing outages that way).

In a quality datacentre you would aim for 2N, so 2x UPS for the entire building capacity, 2x HVAC, 2x generator capacity for the entire building, etc etc. Increasingly many (most?) have natural gas generators as well as diesel.

This is for huge amounts of load as well (100MW+). Given this facility was only on a 6kV feed from what I've read it's unlikely to be much over 1MW of capacity, so absolutely trivial in comparison to provide 2N redundancy. Even multihour battery backup would be cheap to provide these days.

Really quite eye opening how poor rail systems are in comparison to data centres, especially given how critical they are and the enormous liability payments that NR has if it fails like today in comparison to datacentres.

The servers I rent for low 100s a month in telehouse in London have dramatically better resilience than NR has specified here it seems.
Signalling equipment rooms are NOT data centres. The equipment in signalling equipment rooms draw nothing like the same kind of power, nor is there the same concentration of equipment. In a traditional signalling equipment room you would be lucky to have Aircon, let alone have it on a UPS. My home computer survives very well without me having air con.

ROCs may have their air con fed by UPS, as they do seem to be treated more like computer centres than signalboxes. But if so, the air con isn't fed from the same UPS as the critical equipment.
 
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S101

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IIRC when the ROC concept was first developed it was stated that a huge advantage would be that should one be out of action, another could take over its duties and the trains would still run. Where the staff, or indeed the workstations, would come from to allow this was never stated! AFAIK it has never actually happened, to no-one's surprise.
That'd be brilliant. Signallers that only sign Sheffield workstations at York, signalling Manchester Victoria or Crewe from York. What could possibly go wrong.
 

Ballyheigue

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Good grief. It's not Knightsbridge but it's equally no more dangerous than anywhere else in the centre.

Source: Living for 30 years in Leeds.
No it is nowadays, the police are outside Leeds Bus Station at 7am for a good reason every morning. I have lived in Leeds (hate it by the way lol) for way too long and have seen it getting worse each year.
 

EYFanatic

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First passenger train out of MCV - so not counting light engine moves and ECS workings - seems to be 2F11 0530 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street which left without an issue

 

EYFanatic

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No it is nowadays, the police are outside Leeds Bus Station at 7am for a good reason every morning. I have lived in Leeds (hate it by the way lol) for way too long and have seen it getting worse each year.
Oddly, I have been in Leeds to get an overnight coach and never faced any trouble at all... Often stop at a pub for a quick half before hand at the Dog and Drake myself
 

Harpo

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IIRC when the ROC concept was first developed it was stated that a huge advantage would be that should one be out of action, another could take over its duties and the trains would still run. Where the staff, or indeed the workstations, would come from to allow this was never stated! AFAIK it has never actually happened, to no-one's surprise.
It was an early aspiration of NR’s Operating Strategy to have reconfigurable workstations rather than workstations with a fixed amount of railway. That would have replicated panel boxes that could be worked by 1 to ‘how many can we get in here?’ signallers.

The logical extension of that was it ought to be feasible to do that between locations as well as desks for disaster recovery, allowing skeleton services after transporting local managers and staff to run it.

Lots of bits of the Strategy didn’t happen, not helped by Network Rail’s classic delegated leadership where no grown-up at the top mandates something but instead leaves 3rd/4th tier folk to fight things out with peers to see who wins. Hence why anti-ROC sentiments went unchecked at senior levels and on certain routes.

As for today’s issues, extremely high integrity of power supplies was most definitely in the spec.
 
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Bantamzen

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Yes, but the poster you were replying to was complaining that he couldn't get this information from social media feeds. As Iskra said, this kind of information will be very station specific. It will likely also be very time specific, changing as the situation evolves. Other posts on here suggest that information was being given out at stations, in the kind of way that you suggest. However, it just isn't practical to give out this kind of information on social media feeds, as the volume of information would totally overwhelm the feeds.

Unfortunately people seem to be increasingly reliant on the internet, and totally helpless without it.
Hmmm, I'm not sure relying on the internet is a bad thing. In fact it is a tool that TOCs / NR really ought to be using more effectively in situations like this. If information can be given out at stations to hundreds of people, it can also be offered to many more online. This is something that needs to be learnt from this situation, have processes and staff ready to be able to communicate fast changing information, that might mean that people don't even have to swarm to the station to be told "get the 36 to Bolton".

In my case I didn't even attempt to head to a station, I knew what would be waiting for me. As I work at St Peter's Square, my first instinct was a tram to Altrincham where I thought it might be possible that Mid Cheshires would turn back at, as has happened in the past with disruptions in Manchester. But I also knew that failing that, I had options to use a couple Warrington buses to complete my journey, or if things really went south I could at least park in a pub and order a taxi as it would be considerably cheaper getting one there than in central Manchester. I made this decision from my desk, using only the internet to check connection times, and for any issues on the tram network.

So for a wider audience, if the decision is made to advise people to not travel by train (and that is what should be told, not a more arse-covering "do not travel"), then signpost people to alternatives. For example for punters in Manchester, signpost them to the TfM journey planner if their destination is going to be within Great Manchester in the first instance. Then if the situation is continuing, offer more specific information on main corridors, i.e. bus / tram alternatives, where to catch them, links to timetables. This would help move a lot of local travel queries away from besieged staff at stations, giving them more time for the passengers where other public transport is not going to be an option. And if the situation is so bad as it was yesterday, and now it seems today, for passengers likely to be stranded if they don't use a taxi or book a hotel, have a system in place to signpost them to preferred companies, and how to easily claim expenses back from the TOCs.

Longer term, TOCs need to remember that most passengers have a communication device in their pockets / bags. So where people have the app, or have bought online, use this line of communication not just to say "sorry mate yer train's stuffed", but to communicate the above. And even if the situation is not fully clear, and it's unclear what might run and what might not run, ping an alert via the app / email to say "Be aware that there may be issues travelling from Manchester, please check our online resources". I only got to find out about the issue because I always check the status of my trains in advance of me leaving my desk, and usually up to an hour before. But my co-workers were blissfully unaware of the cluster-you-know-what developing, some of whom had long journeys to make that evening. So they would have left the office right at the heart of the peak only to find they might be completely stuffed. But a simple advance warning of a potential issue would have given them more time to plan alternatives.

None of this is particularly difficult or onerous. It just needs the will, and a little bit of finance. But that cost could easily be offset by more passengers being aware of having to make alternative arrangements and not end up claiming a surge-pricing influenced Uber fare.
 

BG2024

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I was stuck in Blackpool yesterday. Everything stopped around 14:30. Eventually they set up a Blackpool-Preston shuttle, but options to get anywhere from Preston were pretty limited.

Thankfully I was able to beg a lift home. Must have been chaos at Blackpool North with the combination of August family holidayers, and thousands of punks leaving the Rebellion Festival.
 

Justin Smith

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We were travelling to Sheffield, originally from Oxford Rd, and took the decision to walk to Piccadilly despite being told "it'd be no better". For once the Gods were smiling on us and we just had time to get on the 14.48 stopper because it left 36min late ! This goes via Romiley not Stockport and actually gained 3 minutes on its journey, arriving Sheff at 16.38. I expected it to be packed, as did the guard, but it wasn't, which was very surprising. In my view a lot of passengers at Piccadilly made the wrong decision......
If the epicentre of the problem was in the Ardwick area can anyone tell me why we were able to get this train pretty much no problem (apart from it being late) ?
 

campdave

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Northern and TPE along with LNER have had long-standing automatic acceptance in the event of any cancellation. I believe this also applies now to all DFTO TOCs. Plus during disruption like this, youll rarely see conductors checking tickets anyway.

This may be true , but the information provided on the national rail website didn't mention that , only specific routes , of which Preston to Lancaster was not one.
 

Justin Smith

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Well there are buses and drivers siting around waiting, that’s the whole point of being on National Rail’s list of rail replacement contractors.

Sourcing enough to make any sort of dint in the crowds is more the issue
I thought here were new rules about only busses with defined "acceptable disabled access" were allowed these days ?
 

dosxuk

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The servers I rent for low 100s a month in telehouse in London have dramatically better resilience than NR has specified here it seems.
It's not uncommon for data centres to lose power, despite their designed in resilience.

The only way to avoid the effects of a power failure is to design your systems in a way that it doesn't matter if they lose power - assume it's going to be lost at some point and focus on the recovery from that situation. It's exactly why the likes of AWS are designed to host services from multiple data centres with fail over redundancy to work around the loss of a physical (or virtual) location - and even then they've still been taken down for various reasons, including one a few years ago where a fire at a data centre in London removed much of their connectivity - so even though their data centres were still online a large proportion of traffic couldn't reach them.
 

Spartacus

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I wasn't quite prepared for now minimal TPE's service would be this morning, only the 2U stopper from Piccadilly to Leeds and hourly from Leeds to York. It feels like after cancelling services at York and Leeds last night there's been no attempt at recovery yet.
 

mmh

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It's not uncommon for data centres to lose power, despite their designed in resilience.

The only way to avoid the effects of a power failure is to design your systems in a way that it doesn't matter if they lose power - assume it's going to be lost at some point and focus on the recovery from that situation. It's exactly why the likes of AWS are designed to host services from multiple data centres with fail over redundancy to work around the loss of a physical (or virtual) location - and even then they've still been taken down for various reasons, including one a few years ago where a fire at a data centre in London removed much of their connectivity - so even though their data centres were still online a large proportion of traffic couldn't reach them.
That's fine for automated systems, the problem here is signalling being a human operated system designed around those humans being in a particular place to run it. If the computer on their desk has no power all the data centre redundancy in the world won't help.
 

Iskra

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I wasn't quite prepared for now minimal TPE's service would be this morning, only the 2U stopper from Piccadilly to Leeds and hourly from Leeds to York. It feels like after cancelling services at York and Leeds last night there's been no attempt at recovery yet.
I’m on a Northern Leeds-Manchester Vic-Wigan Wallgate service and it’s very quiet. I didn’t want to risk a 3-carriage TP today.
 

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