• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Constant delays around the Sheffield area - what can be done to improve the situation?

fishwomp

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
1,271
Location
milton keynes
Not sure how solving Sheffield's problems becomes building out a tram train network, electrification, and reopening Victoria..

All of that is going to the billions category. That means it won't happen for a decade, and all decisions can be postponed, cancelled, refused, reinstated and all the way round again.

Meanwhile, Sheffield will be a bottleneck. For the whole decade of fine plans.

Perfect is the enemy of good...
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Gareth1990

Member
Joined
8 May 2026
Messages
138
Location
Oxted
What about diverting CrossCountry trains and completely avoiding Sheffield, have them run on the line that goes via Kilamarsh? In the longer term maybe build a parkway station at Rotherham?
 

fishwomp

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
1,271
Location
milton keynes
What about diverting CrossCountry trains and completely avoiding Sheffield, have them run on the line that goes via Kilamarsh? In the longer term maybe build a parkway station at Rotherham?
Just no..

If we close Sheffield, I think technically we will have solved all Sheffield problems - and at a very low cost.

It is an interchange for far too many regional services into the XC network, as well as a big city.. but if we adopt the approach at places like Birmingham too, we might also solve some of the overcrowding issues besetting XC too.
 

Gareth1990

Member
Joined
8 May 2026
Messages
138
Location
Oxted
Just no..

If we close Sheffield, I think technically we will have solved all Sheffield problems - and at a very low cost.

It is an interchange for far too many regional services into the XC network, as well as a big city.. but if we adopt the approach at places like Birmingham too, we might also solve some of the overcrowding issues besetting XC too.
Where did I say we should close Sheffield? I said we should divert CrossCountry services…
 

fishwomp

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
1,271
Location
milton keynes
Where did I say we should close Sheffield? I said we should divert CrossCountry services…
I'm expanding on the idea: solve the problem by removing train utility.

You just broke all/some XC connections with Barnsley, Huddersfield, Nottingham, Lincolnshire, etc.
 

Zomboid

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2025
Messages
2,209
Location
Oxford
Cutting services is one way to "solve" the problem, but taking a city like Sheffield off the XC network is a pretty poor idea, IMO.
 

Dumpty

On Moderation
Joined
1 Nov 2018
Messages
9
Would a Sheffild Parkway Station somewhere along the "Old Road" help with the overcrowding?
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
21,922
Location
Airedale
There were sidings at Nunnery and a DMU depot at Darnall in the not too distant past.. Brightside has plenty of railway owned space, but I'd prefer that to be used to make 4-track again - with turnouts to the Barnsley branch nearer Sheffield, higher speed, and thereby reduce occupancy of the mainline.
Yes, but having sidings there means ECS over the Nunnery to Midland section which is already congested, hence wanting to locate them to the south.

I assume the sidings are abolished so access to them isn't an issue. The reason I suggested 2 for northbound through trains was because sending them into 1 puts them into conflict with Hope Valley and partly destroys the benefit of keeping them separate on the third track.
Sorry, I'd overlooked your idea of a third track.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
6,430
Location
Sheffield
What about diverting CrossCountry trains and completely avoiding Sheffield, have them run on the line that goes via Kilamarsh? In the longer term maybe build a parkway station at Rotherham?
That hits a raw nerve in Sheffield!!

George Stephenson surveyed his route from Derby to Leeds and went via Rotherham to cut out Sheffield. HS2 came to a similar conclusion. Special services often pick up at Chesterfield and Swinton to avoid Sheffield congestion (unless running via the Hope Valley).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Could you risk combining the Hope Valley stopper with the Doncaster, or does that just move the problem from one congested station to another?
NO! Superficially it's a good idea, but when it used to be done like that (stopped over 10 years ago) it fed delays across the network. However it would have one advantage if east side crews operated the trains - we might get a better Sunday service!
And/or could you use Dore as turnback from the north?
Using Dore as a turnback? Another good idea, especially if it gave Dore a 2 or 3 trains an hour service into Sheffield.

Would need a bi-directional 3rd track down theSheaf Valley into Sheffield - already planned for the paused electrified line or cancelled HS2!

Bi-directional tracks through Dore & Totley would be needed, but where would a terminating train stand? A new siding between Twentywell Lane road bridge and the Dore loop? Doubtful if there's enough space and joining such a track to the loop would be difficult as the tracks would be at opposite cant angles.

Running through Totley Tunnel to Grindleford would find space there but adds the 5-6 minute tunnel separation bottlemeck in both directions through the tunnel so that's out!
 
Last edited:

Harpers Tate

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2013
Messages
2,034
What, if any, impact might "simply" reworking the entire physically constrained 2-track section immediately north of Sheffield, such that both tracks are fully bi-directional, have? (Without studying existing track layout - including any helpful addition of new crossovers to enable all and any services use whichever track works best in both routine and contingency circumstances.)
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
3,733
Location
Newport
The train plan for Sheffield obviously 'works on paper' as it's been through validation to get there. The answers as to why it doesn't work on the ground may well point to problems beyond Sheffield. It certainly doesn't sound like it has the capacity for Birminghamisation, giving trains vastly bloated dwell times and accepting poor inbound punctuality.
 

eastwestdivide

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2009
Messages
3,394
Location
S Yorks, usually
What, if any, impact might "simply" reworking the entire physically constrained 2-track section immediately north of Sheffield, such that both tracks are fully bi-directional, have? (Without studying existing track layout - including any helpful addition of new crossovers to enable all and any services use whichever track works best in both routine and contingency circumstances.)
With potentially 13 trains an hour in each direction at the N end of Sheffield, giving an average 4.5 minute headway, I’d imagine bidirectional working would be of relatively limited use. Only 1 of the 13 go round the corner towards Worksop, so there’s not many conflicts at Nunnery ML Junction. On the other hand, more flexibility in and out of the north end for terminating/starting and reversing services wouldn’t be a bad thing.
 

BrianW

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2017
Messages
2,129
And XC has the advantage of near exclusive access to platform 6 southbound so can at least get into the station once that stopper is cleared.

However, if you're on such a local stopper, the nemesis is the lack of platforms northbound - so you end up waiting in the cuttings for another service to come out.. For ages.

We had a discussion about some of that a while back - one post in particular I liked: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-p6-and-p8-at-sheffield.258877/#post-6535132 - a (ex-)contributor on here who worked Sheffield workstation - simple interventions could make a big difference (quoting him here:)

IF the track and platform arrangements are as the 'EMR Sheffield Station Accessibility Map' https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/media/4190/download?inline- it would seem to me that 'quick wins' will
be quite difficult.. I appreciate that the pointwork and signalling will create further issues.

The approaches (esp from the north) are constrained, and not cheaply eased.

Realtime Trains illustrates the large number of movements at and through the station.

I understand that terminating trains take longer to clear (cleaning, crews etc) than those merely 'calling'- could (some of?) these be reorganised to go through?

The bay platforms at the north and south ends are necessarily short; that is a constraint- although there are four through platforms (more with intermediate crossovers), thus limiting the possibility of longer
trains.

The track plan suggests there are through lines between the through platform lines- probably much required when Coal was King- difficult, disruptive and expensive to re-engineer to create. more platforms.

Quart into a pint pot?
 

Harpers Tate

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2013
Messages
2,034
....not many conflicts at Nunnery ML Junction....more flexibility in and out of the north end for terminating/starting and reversing services wouldn’t be a bad thing.
That was where my head was at. Agree about Nunnery, although there was, briefly, pre-covid, twice as many Worksop-bound services. As to whether we'll ever see a return of the Retford/Gainsborough shorts (or even through to/from Cleethorpes more frequently) is a separate question - but it would immediately ease any consequence there.

But I was thinking more broadly about (for example) easing use of the high-numbered platforms for Meadowhall-bound services and bringing the ultimate crossover conflict further away from Sheffield itself, where there is more space to allow for more tracks and/or faster turnouts; i.e. allowing an incoming headed for a low numbered platform to arrive concurrently with a departing high numbered platform train's departure (etc.) and resolving them to/from the right tracks where they can do so more quickly and easily.
 

xdbjacx

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2025
Messages
24
Location
Yorks
I have pondered this a few times. I think that the reluctance to remodel Sheffield may be because, on its own, it doesn't do much. It is just one of a series of critical constraints that radiate outwards, particularly to the north.

I don't know what the signalling setup is like on the Worksop line but I bet it's not great. The Hallam Line hardly has any signalling at all, so the imported delays would remain a problem and the pinch points would transfer to Horbury Junction and Wakefield Kirkgate. As others have mentioned, the single lead junctions at Holmes and for the Penistone route would also remain performance constraint, as would South Kirkby Junction.

I think Sheffield has always been on the 'too hard' pile because to be worth the effort and disruption it would snowball into a far bigger regional programme of projects. Possibly this is partly what did for the original MML electrification plan.
 

Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
10,663
Location
West Riding
I have pondered this a few times. I think that the reluctance to remodel Sheffield may be because, on its own, it doesn't do much. It is just one of a series of critical constraints that radiate outwards, particularly to the north.

I don't know what the signalling setup is like on the Worksop line but I bet it's not great. The Hallam Line hardly has any signalling at all, so the imported delays would remain a problem and the pinch points would transfer to Horbury Junction and Wakefield Kirkgate. As others have mentioned, the single lead junctions at Holmes and for the Penistone route would also remain performance constraint, as would South Kirkby Junction.

I think Sheffield has always been on the 'too hard' pile because to be worth the effort and disruption it would snowball into a far bigger regional programme of projects. Possibly this is partly what did for the original MML electrification plan.
Once TRU is done, Moorthorpe to Leicester ought to get the same level of transformational treatment; then after that- Derby-Birmingham New Street.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,628
The train plan for Sheffield obviously 'works on paper' as it's been through validation to get there. The answers as to why it doesn't work on the ground may well point to problems beyond Sheffield. It certainly doesn't sound like it has the capacity for Birminghamisation, giving trains vastly bloated dwell times and accepting poor inbound punctuality.
That applies everywhere. There are lots of places where something is compliant and works on a graph, that doesn't mean it works ideally on the ground.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,067
Location
Redcar
I think Sheffield has always been on the 'too hard' pile because to be worth the effort and disruption it would snowball into a far bigger regional programme of projects. Possibly this is partly what did for the original MML electrification plan.
See I reckon it's the other way around. Fettling Sheffield was always going to be part of MML electrification (no point stringing wires up if you then want to move the track around a few years later!) so the constant punting of MML electrification into the long grass means that fixing Sheffield as a standalone project never gets off the ground. I think there was enough nonsense going on with MML electrification that Sheffield being thorny (read: expensive) to fix didn't really play much role in that saga but that saga did do for fixing Sheffield.
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
3,733
Location
Newport
That applies everywhere. There are lots of places where something is compliant and works on a graph, that doesn't mean it works ideally on the ground.
Quite! It’s a long time since I first heard “Well it works on paper!”
 
Last edited:

Grimsby town

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2011
Messages
852
And looking further ahead, turning the lines over to tram-trains also kills off any further potential of expansion either north (to Penistone/Huddersfield) or south (towards Derby or Nottingham), unless you also want to add electrification and low-floor platforms to all those stations as well. And (going back to the point of this thread), reopening Victoria could offer opportunities to divert some more "metro" services away from Midland to free up space there, for instance towards Lincoln, or Doncaster (via Tinsley and Rotherham Central).
I completely agree that Stocksbridge to Chesterfield should be heavy rail and extended through to Nottingham allowing the current Sheffield to Nottingham service to drop calls at Ilkeston and Langley Mill. That would massively boost connectivity between the South Yorkshire and East Midlands main urban areas. It would also provide a second Sheffield station which some services could be diverted to and additonal services could use to places like Worksop or possibly even London/Birmingham. Yes its not ideal having multiple stations but Chesterfield provides a good interchange to the wider rail network.
Once TRU is done, Moorthorpe to Leicester ought to get the same level of transformational treatment; then after that- Derby-Birmingham New Street.
And I completely agree with this too. Leeds-Birmingham has to be the priority for the next TRU style upgrade, especially since the loss of HS2. The line has too many short restrictions in speed on what is otherwise a relatively fast line. The curves at Moorthorpe and Rotherham Masborough as well as the speed restriction at Burton Station need to be designed out. Increased capacity through select areas of three/four tracking should be developed to reduce interaction between intercity and local trains. Significant remodelling of Sheffield and re-signalling will also be required.

By all means try to implement some short term measures but we, as a country, should be looking to spend billions to improve connections between four major urban conurbations. Once TRU is finished, Leeds to Birmingham starts to look very poor compared to every other railway betwen relatively close major conurbations.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,265
I completely agree that Stocksbridge to Chesterfield should be heavy rail and extended through to Nottingham allowing the current Sheffield to Nottingham service to drop calls at Ilkeston and Langley Mill. That would massively boost connectivity between the South Yorkshire and East Midlands main urban areas. It would also provide a second Sheffield station which some services could be diverted to and additonal services could use to places like Worksop or possibly even London/Birmingham. Yes its not ideal having multiple stations but Chesterfield provides a good interchange to the wider rail network.
Stocksbridge is a pretty small settlement all things considered. I am sceptical that one train an hour or similar is ever going to be able to generate sufficient traffic to justify the expense of reopening it, especially if it is not even coupled to the primary interchange stations for South Yorkshire (which I'd argue are Sheffield Midland and Meadowhall).

A stopping train on the line via Barrow Hill is going to be rather slow, with the number of stations that are proposed on it. Given the line is already apparently slower than the main route (both based on realtime trains an the fact that it is not the main route!), I am not sure how attractive a train from the East Midlands to Sheffield that is slower and also doesn't go to the same Sheffield station that almost all the other trains go to would be.

I would like to propose a thought experiment. Suppose Sheffield Victoria station's location had been lost to history, would people propose a station on that site as a "second station" for Sheffield today?
And I completely agree with this too. Leeds-Birmingham has to be the priority for the next TRU style upgrade, especially since the loss of HS2. The line has too many short restrictions in speed on what is otherwise a relatively fast line. The curves at Moorthorpe and Rotherham Masborough as well as the speed restriction at Burton Station need to be designed out. Increased capacity through select areas of three/four tracking should be developed to reduce interaction between intercity and local trains. Significant remodelling of Sheffield and re-signalling will also be required.

By all means try to implement some short term measures but we, as a country, should be looking to spend billions to improve connections between four major urban conurbations. Once TRU is finished, Leeds to Birmingham starts to look very poor compared to every other railway betwen relatively close major conurbations.

After TRU, if you want to improve Leeds to Birmingham I think your best option is likely to run a Birmingham Curzon Street-Leeds train via Manchester. It would seem to leave any reasonable upgrade of the classic line via Sheffield for dead.

I think a light rail solution, both for any future reopenings and for dealing with current congestion, would be the best option. It offers additional capacity at comparatively low cost and risk, and builds upon the experience of the tram train project. Let's say we did Stocksbridge and extended onto the Penistone line, that saves at least one path on the Sheffield northern throat alongside all the cited advantages for a return to rail-based travel to Stocksbridge.
 
Last edited:

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
8,144
Location
Leeds
After TRU, if you want to improve Leeds to Birmingham I think your best option is likely to run a Birmingham Curzon Street-Leeds train via Manchester. It would seem to leave any reasonable upgrade of the classic line via Sheffield for dead.
The last I heard, it is not currently proposed to install any track, signalling or OLE on the west<->north curve of the HS2 delta junction (because of the lack of capacity in the Handsacre/Stafford area), so your suggestion would depend on the completion of not just TRU but also the western arm of HS2 phase 2 or some replacement for it.

My source for this is an item in Modern Railways in the closing months of 2024, so there may have been a change of plan since then.
 
Last edited:

Zomboid

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2025
Messages
2,209
Location
Oxford
would like to propose a thought experiment. Suppose Sheffield Victoria station's location had been lost to history, would people propose a station on that site as a "second station" for Sheffield today?
If the route through to Stocksbridge had gone, then probably not. Personally looking at the present aerial photos, I would put such a station at Nunnery Square, where there seems to be space to the north of the line to extend and an easy interchange to the tram. Whilst throwing money around I'd upgrade the line from the (attercliffe? Not familiar with the lush terminology) to Rotherham and build a new station where it passes Meadowhall, and divert the stoppers that run that way.

It's not wonderfully located for the city centre, but the tram can help with both that and the interchange to midland station.

Probably better to bite the bullet and widen the cutting (or build a new tunnel to Meadowhall that bypasses it) though.
 

Grimsby town

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2011
Messages
852
Stocksbridge is a pretty small settlement all things considered. I am sceptical that one train an hour or similar is ever going to be able to generate sufficient traffic to justify the expense of reopening it, especially if it is not even coupled to the primary interchange stations for South Yorkshire (which I'd argue are Sheffield Midland and Meadowhall).

If there wasn't a line there already I'd agree but there so it'd be a relatively cheap. I don't see it being massively different to Portishead in terms of suffering slow bus services. Stocksbridge is smaller but would be an easier line to reopen than Portishead.
A stopping train on the line via Barrow Hill is going to be rather slow, with the number of stations that are proposed on it. Given the line is already apparently slower than the main route (both based on realtime trains an the fact that it is not the main route!), I am not sure how attractive a train from the East Midlands to Sheffield that is slower and also doesn't go to the same Sheffield station that almost all the other trains go to would be.

I would like to propose a thought experiment. Suppose Sheffield Victoria station's location had been lost to history, would people propose a station on that site as a "second station" for Sheffield today?
My personal opinion on Sheffield Victoria isn't driven by some nostalgia for a past that I wasn't alive for. I genuinely believe there's case for reopening a station around Victoria and one at Nunnery Square for tram interchange. Reasoning includes:
  • The current station struggling for capacity and resilience. A new station at Victoria could provide a potential diversion and allow for new services
  • The area Victoria lies sits on the edge of a rapidly developing area of the city centre
  • Onward bus connections are good along Spital Hill. The DfT connectivity tool scores public transport connectivity at Victoria very similarly to Sheffield Midland
A Nottingham service via Barrow Hill would be slower to Sheffield City Centre but competitive from Sheffield's suburbs and the area of the city around Victoria. It'd also prove more reliable than having to rely on overcrowded long-distance services.


After TRU, if you want to improve Leeds to Birmingham I think your best option is likely to run a Birmingham Curzon Street-Leeds train via Manchester. It would seem to leave any reasonable upgrade of the classic line via Sheffield for dead.
It's going to require full HS2 Manchester to make Leeds to Birmingham via Manchester competitive on journey time. Unfortunately that seems to be decades away. Even assuming that does happen, an upgrade shouldn't be reliant on Leeds to Birmingham traffic. Leeds to Sheffield/Nottingham and Sheffield/Nottingham to Birmingham are still very important flows with some of the worst services between major city pairs.

I think a light rail solution, both for any future reopenings and for dealing with current congestion, would be the best option. It offers additional capacity at comparatively low cost and risk, and builds upon the experience of the tram train project. Let's say we did Stocksbridge and extended onto the Penistone line, that saves at least one path on the Sheffield northern throat alongside all the cited advantages for a return to rail-based travel to Stocksbridge.
I don't see a tram being particularly cheap though. There's not an easy connection with the existing tram network, so that alone will cost £100s millions. There'd be savings on stations from Stocksbridge but probably none overall on the Barrow Hill line as new platforms would be needed at Darnall, Woodhouse and Chesterfield and new stations would require lifts, even if a low floor platform is slightly cheaper.

A tram from Huddersfield to Sheffield is going to be over an hour in journey time which is really pushing what is suitable for tram operation. You're also then having to rebuild all of the stations on that line. A heavy rail service is more suitable to Huddersfield.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,609
Do we think Sheffield Victoria as a new secondary station for Sheffield would be much more attractive than coupling these two lines to the tram system? I'd lean in favour of the tram being preferable, Victoria is hardly the best located station site in the world.

I'm not close enough to local circumstances to comment in some ways, Stocksbridge may well be better as a tram extension. What I am clear about is that another section of tram train running with 750v DC electrification is exactly what is not needed, and that ideally if either Barrow Hill and/or Stocksbridge is reopened, then running either service to Sheffield Midland will have an unacceptable impact on performance unless very serious investment is undertaken - which would presumably undermine the case for either reopening.

On the question of having a second station in Sheffield city centre, I do wonder what the comments on this forum would have been when the concept of reopening Birmingham Snow Hill was being considered - interchange is not the be all and end all - and in the case of Stocksbridge this would give almost exactly the same level of interchange at Chesterfield!
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
3,733
Location
Newport
I do wonder what the comments on this forum would have been when the concept of reopening Birmingham Snow Hill was being considered - interchange is not the be all and end all
Interchange moved in a more limited fashion to Smethwick Galton Bridge. Or a walk along the hugely unpleasant underpass of p… between Moor St and New St..
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,604
Location
Hope Valley
Worth noting for Birmingham that any relief from removing some services (mainly the Stourbridge line) was quickly ‘back-filled’ by growth on other New Street services. I.e. the ‘problem’ station ended up no better off.
 

Manutd1999

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2021
Messages
547
Location
UK
Would simplification of the service pattern help?

Cull some of the “1ph to everywhere” thinking and run all the local Northern services on a simpler half-hourly pattern, with everything terminating in the northern bay platforms:

2ph Sheffield - Doncaster
2ph Sheffield - Lincoln
2ph Sheffield - Barnsley - Huddersfield/Castleford
2ph Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds

1ph stopper to Leeds via Wakefield Westgate would be the only odd one out terminating, with the “Yorkshire flyer” extended to Nottingham instead of a Barnsley service.

These services could interwork as needed to balance usage of the bay platforms and overall reliability.

It wouldn’t fix everything but it would be a start IMO
 
Last edited:

S101

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2025
Messages
98
Location
West Yorkshire
The track plan suggests there are through lines between the through platform lines- probably much required when Coal was King- difficult, disruptive and expensive to re-engineer to create. more platforms.

Quart into a pint pot?
There are. From about 7pm every night they fill up with Northern Units, and TPX Units that stable until the next morning. It's not unusual for units to be stabled through they day either.

Freight trains etc can use them as through lines, but it's slow, because the signalling is by position lights rather than main aspects, so drivers are feeling for their signals if routed that way.
 

Top