Avanti 805's under the wires on WCML (Euston - LIverpool)

45Fox · 26 Jul 2026

QueensCurve said:
I remember the 6:53 off hartford when it was formed mainly of Mk3 stock (23m).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2026 ==

Mark 3b stock on the Merseyside Pullman?

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Bevan Price · 26 Jul 2026

The Planner said:
Hartford has disused parts of the platforms though doesn't it? Looks like around 40m on Google Maps.

The useable length of the Hartford platforms was reduced when nothing longer than 2xClass 350 was booked to call there. The disused parts were made unuseable. In BR days, it had been used by an early morning Liverpool - Euston service, an evening return from Euston, plus some of what later became Cross Country services to/from Liverpool. Even earlier, if]t had also had a few services to Warrington and north thereof.

It is not clear to me why the platforms needed to be shortened; yes, parts were getting overgrown with weeds, but it almost looked like a deliberate move to ensure it could not in future be used by Pendolinos.

The Planner · 27 Jul 2026

Bevan Price said:
The useable length of the Hartford platforms was reduced when nothing longer than 2xClass 350 was booked to call there. The disused parts were made unuseable. In BR days, it had been used by an early morning Liverpool - Euston service, an evening return from Euston, plus some of what later became Cross Country services to/from Liverpool. Even earlier, if]t had also had a few services to Warrington and north thereof.

It is not clear to me why the platforms needed to be shortened; yes, parts were getting overgrown with weeds, but it almost looked like a deliberate move to ensure it could not in future be used by Pendolinos.

I suspect that is tin foil hat territory. If at the time the agreed position was that Virgin/Avanti had no intention of stopping then it was acceptable. Things change, but the perennial conversation of what do you keep maintaining just in case comes into play.

zwk500 · 27 Jul 2026

Bevan Price said:
The useable length of the Hartford platforms was reduced when nothing longer than 2xClass 350 was booked to call there. The disused parts were made unuseable. In BR days, it had been used by an early morning Liverpool - Euston service, an evening return from Euston, plus some of what later became Cross Country services to/from Liverpool. Even earlier, if]t had also had a few services to Warrington and north thereof.

It is not clear to me why the platforms needed to be shortened; yes, parts were getting overgrown with weeds, but it almost looked like a deliberate move to ensure it could not in future be used by Pendolinos.

If the platforms were reduced under privatisation, wouldn't it have had to go through the Network Change Process and therefore Virgin would have been given the chance to raise any objections?

The Planner · 27 Jul 2026

zwk500 said:
If the platforms were reduced under privatisation, wouldn't it have had to go through the Network Change Process and therefore Virgin would have been given the chance to raise any objections?

Should have and did have are two very different things! If it was pre 94 then it didnt matter.

hexagon789 · 27 Jul 2026

Virgin were still calling at Hartford in the 2000s, don't have 2004 but there are calls there in the 2003 timetable.

Taunton · 27 Jul 2026

Bevan Price said:
The useable length of the Hartford platforms was reduced when nothing longer than 2xClass 350 was booked to call there. The disused parts were made unuseable. In BR days, it had been used by an early morning Liverpool - Euston service, an evening return from Euston, plus some of what later became Cross Country services to/from Liverpool. Even earlier, if]t had also had a few services to Warrington and north thereof.

It is not clear to me why the platforms needed to be shortened; yes, parts were getting overgrown with weeds, but it almost looked like a deliberate move to ensure it could not in future be used by Pendolinos.

In earlier BR days even the through daily Plymouth to Liverpool via Hereford train stopped there. ICI had a significant plant in Avonmouth, called Severnside, and there was a steady flow of business travel from there via Bristol to their plants at Northwich. An ICI minibus could be seen in the road outside to take them to their hotels etc (as it stopped mid-afternoon).

Bald Rick · 27 Jul 2026

zwk500 said:
If the platforms were reduced under privatisation, wouldn't it have had to go through the Network Change Process and therefore Virgin would have been given the chance to raise any objections?

The Planner said:
Should have and did have are two very different things! If it was pre 94 then it didnt matter.

The first Network Changes were in 1996, if that makes a difference.

Railperf · 31 Jul 2026

Today's 9:05 continued Runcorn to Liverpool Lime Street on diesel and didn't seem to run at MU speeds on diesel or electric either sticking to under 108-109mph max.

Jamesrob637 · 31 Jul 2026

hexagon789 said:
Virgin were still calling at Hartford in the 2000s, don't have 2004 but there are calls there in the 2003 timetable.

Is that because 03 was still loco hauled and 04 was Pendolino?

childwallblues · 5 Aug 2026

Bevan Price said:
The useable length of the Hartford platforms was reduced when nothing longer than 2xClass 350 was booked to call there. The disused parts were made unuseable. In BR days, it had been used by an early morning Liverpool - Euston service, an evening return from Euston, plus some of what later became Cross Country services to/from Liverpool. Even earlier, if]t had also had a few services to Warrington and north thereof.

It is not clear to me why the platforms needed to be shortened; yes, parts were getting overgrown with weeds, but it almost looked like a deliberate move to ensure it could not in future be used by Pendolinos.

Probably cut short when they were relaid to save money as they were unused. No forward thinking.

The Planner · 5 Aug 2026

childwallblues said:
Probably cut short when they were relaid to save money as they were unused. No forward thinking.

But if there were no plans known at the time and the budget could be reduced, which all asset managers have to try and do, it still wasn't the wrong decision then. We don't operate in a world of leave it just in case.

AndrewE · 5 Aug 2026

The Planner said:
But if there were no plans known at the time and the budget could be reduced, which all asset managers have to try and do, it still wasn't the wrong decision then. We don't operate in a world of leave it just in case.

which is understandable.
However one would hope it wouldn't be a difficult job to reinstate a more useful length if such trains were likely (apart from working alongside a live railway.) I think it's also reasonable to have removed the unused platform edge slabs, given how close that they are to the loading gauge and that, being neglected, grass etc growing at the back edge might even push them closer..

frodshamfella · 5 Aug 2026

Dr Hoo said:
As I recall it the main justification for Intercity calls at Hartford was premium business traffic, primarily as a ‘Northwich Parkway’ for the large concentration of chemical industries in the area. That was in the days when business was done face-to-to face.

Hartford may have a higher footfall these days but is that still with a significant number of business travellers?

Indeed it was. I used to work for American Express Travel at Runcorn ICI, we issued a huge amount of rail tickets from Runcorn and Hartford for business travels at ICI in Northwich and Runcorn. The stopping services at Hartford travelling to London was very popular with our clients.

AndrewE · 5 Aug 2026

frodshamfella said:
Indeed it was. I used to work for American Express Travel at Runcorn ICI, we issued a huge amount of rail tickets from Runcorn and Hartford for business travels at ICI in Northwich and Runcorn. The stopping services at Hartford travelling to London was very popular with our clients.

and the morning train from Bristol to Liverpool stopped at Hartford too for the same reason: ICI Avonmouth bods going to Northwich. I looked on it as one big nationalised industry helping another, rather than "Premium business travel!"

childwallblues · 6 Aug 2026

On the Crewe to Liverpool line other stations with reduced platform lengths are West Allerton, Mossley Hill and Edge Hill, At these stations the unused paets of the platform have just been fenced off out of use.

frodshamfella · 6 Aug 2026

AndrewE said:
and the morning train from Bristol to Liverpool stopped at Hartford too for the same reason: ICI Avonmouth bods going to Northwich. I looked on it as one big nationalised industry helping another, rather than "Premium business travel!"

And unfortunately you can't even get a direct train Bristol - Liverpool anymore .....thats progress !

dk1 · 6 Aug 2026

frodshamfella said:
And unfortunately you can't even get a direct train Bristol - Liverpool anymore .....thats progress !

To be fair Liverpool lost several direct routes even before the DfT decided to simplify the XC network from 2007.

AndrewE · 6 Aug 2026

dk1 said:
To be fair Liverpool lost several direct routes even before the DfT decided to simplify the XC network from 2007.

maybe so, I'm sure it is much regretted (and resented!)
From Bristol in the mid-70s we had trains to either Manchester or Liverpool roughly alternate hours, changing at Stafford for the "other" destination, plus the 0820 to Glasgow.
Then "fast to Euston" came in and trumped all other flows...

dk1 · 6 Aug 2026

AndrewE said:
maybe so, I'm sure it is much regretted (and resented!)
From Bristol in the mid-70s we had trains to either Manchester or Liverpool roughly alternate hours, changing at Stafford for the "other" destination, plus the 0820 to Glasgow.
Then "fast to Euston" came in and trumped all other flows...

LNWR services from Birmingham to Lime St have doubled to half hourly since and Virgin’s VHF timetable did see most Euston-Liverpool services call at Stafford.

JamesT · 6 Aug 2026

dk1 said:
LNWR services from Birmingham to Lime St have doubled to half hourly since and Virgin’s VHF timetable did see most Euston-Liverpool services call at Stafford.

And to go with that 2tph from Bristol to Birmingham.

dk1 · 6 Aug 2026

JamesT said:
And to go with that 2tph from Bristol to Birmingham.

One of which goes direct to Piccadilly too 8-)

zwk500 · 6 Aug 2026

dk1 said:
One of which goes direct to Piccadilly too

Well, is supposed to

mickey · 6 Aug 2026

AndrewE said:
maybe so, I'm sure it is much regretted (and resented!)

I was living in Liverpool when the direct routes were cut, and actually it made the service better. Once or twice a day services sounded nice (and my grandma liked them) but in reality they were a right PITA, whereas an hourly connecting service throughout the day was significantly better as it opened up much more flexible journeys. That said, it also introduced challenges each time any timetable was recast as certain planners were more considerate than others over connecting times, etc.

The electric 350s were also a welcome addition when they arrived, much nicer than the chugging diesels they replaced. (350/1 of course, when the /2s arrived it was downhill again.)

frodshamfella · 7 Aug 2026

I travel from Runcorn/Frodsham/ Acton Bridge to the SW quite often and I really do not like changing at Birmingham New Street, i'd much prefer a direct service. If I can get a connection at Stafford or Wolverhampton that is much better, although this doesn't always come up as a ticketing option. I have also travelled via London to avoid to New Street. Another route I have used is from Chester to Exeter via Ludlow, its fine, but very slow. I would certainly welcome a direct train beginning in Liverpool.

Avanti 805's under the wires on WCML (Euston - LIverpool)

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