Assisting from the rear certainly wouldn’t be done that way these days! 40mph max for rear end assistance to a passenger train, and 25mph max for a freight. However freight depends on the wagon brake settings - if the wagons are in “passenger” settings then they can be rear assisted at a maximum of 40mph!
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Merle Haggard
Established Member
When a steam loco is on the front for seemingly cosmetic purposes - for example, spark risk - and there's a diesel on the rear does the same limit (40) apply? Doesn't seem to from experience but posssibly that's 'different'.
//
As an aside; in the case of the Beattock mishap mentioned above the assisting train also had a Class 20 banker. Must have been quite a challenge, to say the least, for the banker's driver with about 24 coaches and two locos in front of him, at night in bad weather on a bank with poor rail conditions and requiring his assistance (probably at full power) to keep moving..
I’ve been on a steam tour that’s had a diesel on the back and we certainly didn’t stay below 40! The 40/25 speed restrictions only apply when assisting failures or during out of course instances, not when everything is working normally; in the case of diesel locos on the back of steam trains, they only assist when required.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
(Not recommended!) Many years ago the Lickey bankers would ‘assist on the fly’, even at night, even passenger trains.
I.e. pass > let out banker > chase > catch up > ease off > push, push, push > drop back at Blackwell.
I.e. pass > let out banker > chase > catch up > ease off > push, push, push > drop back at Blackwell.
...things that go bump in the night!
(Haha). [Think ill go back to my bed now thank you]
Merle Haggard
Established Member
I was on a 'steam' special probably about 15 ish years ago, when there was a firefighters' strike and a dry summer. The steam loco on the front was banned from emitting anything that might include a spark so pretty much cosmetic and the diesel on the back was working hard. And I'm quite sure we did more than 40.
D1537
Established Member
I have twice been on a passenger train that has failed on the Lickey and been assisted from the rear by 2x37 all the way to Birmingham New Street at speeds easily exceeding 40.
I have been on a passenger train that failed at Gleneagles and was pushed all the way to Perth by 47227, again at more than 40.
I have also been a passenger on an overnight ECML sleeper that pushed a failed freight train into Grantshouse loop before reversing and passing it.
Obviously none of those things are going to happen these days but it was clearly not an issue in previous times.
Really? How many years ago was that? In about 1975 I had the Scottish sleeper banked up the Lickey and the train was definitely at a stand until the buffered-up banker driver pushed a plunger to tell the train engine we were ready to go.
Also the youtube videos show the same method of working, even if the communication was by whistles rather than the ready-to-start plunger-and-light that I saw.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Many years ago ~ >100. I’ve got a railway history book with it in - an ‘eye witness’ account from that era.
furnessvale
Established Member
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My comment, whilst 100% true, was offered in a light hearted manner. It does however beg the question, if rear end assistance is so readily accommodated, why are failed trains allowed to block lines while more complicated methods of recovery are followed.
which reminds me that although I have always been aware of this (maybe it was covered in the "Safe working of trains" course) I have never seen it done or any other reference to its use. Does it date back to when a passenger train might have (e.g.) a horsebox or fish van or even a milk tank attached? If so, I guess that would probably have ceased by the time I joined the railway, 1974.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
As I understand it, passenger trains always ran with brake application rates that would be regarded as ‘passenger’ even if including Non-Passenger-Carrying-Coaching-Stock, such as horse boxes.
When longer continuously-braked freight trains became widespread it was realised that a slower setting helped to accommodate the propagation of the brake demand along the train and reducing the shock of the slack action at couplings running in.
If you’ve ever been in the cab of a long merry-go-round coal train with instanter couplings on the roller coaster of the South London Line en route to Northfleet you will appreciate how this works in practice. (Alternatively you can simulate it by getting someone to kick you on the backside.)
When longer continuously-braked freight trains became widespread it was realised that a slower setting helped to accommodate the propagation of the brake demand along the train and reducing the shock of the slack action at couplings running in.
If you’ve ever been in the cab of a long merry-go-round coal train with instanter couplings on the roller coaster of the South London Line en route to Northfleet you will appreciate how this works in practice. (Alternatively you can simulate it by getting someone to kick you on the backside.)
Dunfanaghy Roa
Member
All new wagons have Goods / Passenger changeover levers.
Back in the day (as they say) there could be anomalies. The blue Cartic-4s were 75mh without a changeover, i.e. fixed in Passenger timing. The RIV registered ones were 60mph, with changeovers. If I had one of these in a train of Cartic-4s (not common) I put into Passenger to be compatible. It made sense to me at any rate.
Pat
Back in the day (as they say) there could be anomalies. The blue Cartic-4s were 75mh without a changeover, i.e. fixed in Passenger timing. The RIV registered ones were 60mph, with changeovers. If I had one of these in a train of Cartic-4s (not common) I put into Passenger to be compatible. It made sense to me at any rate.
Pat
hexagon789
Veteran Member
AIUI any freight run at 60mph or greater must run with the brakes in the Passenger setting.