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Merseyrail to be brought back under public control: what improvements/changes may result?

Djgr

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Will the taking control by Liverpool City Region mean loss of integration with the rest of the network as far as through ticketing is concerned, and becoming like Metrolink? I certainly hope not. Currently I can purchase one ticket to travel between Birkenhead and Stafford (random example) Will this mean two separate purchases will be required in future? As another example regarding Metrolink I cannot buy a through ticket to Bury or Oldham from Liverpool, despite these being large northern towns, and previously being able to do so.

On the plus side running the 15 minute timetable for longer at least on Fridays and Saturdays would be good. And Sunday from mid morning-teatime especially summer, is one of the busier periods but is mismatched by a half hourly service. Secondly how will this affect 'City line' services which only see a train every two hours on Sundays? For lines that were recently electrified and partially four tracked (2015) this seems mad.
I don't think the withdrawal of through ticketing is part of this. That said the vast majority of journeys on Merseyrail are self contained and purchasing multiple tickets online (e.g. split ticketing) is fairly straightforward.

None of this in itself affects the frequency of "City line" services, which are indeed often poor (and unreliable). Presumably LCR will need to work with GBR on this but this is much more complicated because of crossed boundaries and interweaving.
 
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Farigiraf

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Will the taking control by Liverpool City Region mean loss of integration with the rest of the network as far as through ticketing is concerned, and becoming like Metrolink? I certainly hope not. Currently I can purchase one ticket to travel between Birkenhead and Stafford (random example) Will this mean two separate purchases will be required in future? As another example regarding Metrolink I cannot buy a through ticket to Bury or Oldham from Liverpool, despite these being large northern towns, and previously being able to do so.
Metrolink was removed from the National Rail network because it involved a heavy rail to light rail (tram) conversion. Merseyrail is still heavy rail, so won't be removed from the NR network. As a result, through tickets to any other NR station are always going to be available, in the same way that you can still get through tickets to London Overground stations despite TfL running their own fares system.

By the way, through tickets to Metrolink are available from Liverpool. It's rarely the cheapest option, due to advance ticket options and PAYG on Metrolink, but you can for example get a Liverpool Stations to Metrolink Zone 1-4 ticket for £23.80 (undiscounted off-peak day return, with no evening restrictions) which is likely to be the simplest ticketing option to get to Bury or Oldham.

Secondly how will this affect 'City line' services which only see a train every two hours on Sundays?
Sunday frequencies being increased to weekday frequencies are fully dependent on what happens with Sunday working on Northern. Either way, it's not a cheap thing to resolve - either you hire more staff, or negotiate increased sunday working with the unions (which will require making many concessions). Probably worth it, but don't expect TfLCR or GBR to rush to solve it.

None of this in itself affects the frequency of "City line" services, which are indeed often poor (and unreliable). Presumably LCR will need to work with GBR on this but this is much more complicated because of crossed boundaries and interweaving.
Co-ordinating TfGM and TfLCR operations and ticketing will eventually be something that has to be done. It's a logistical nightmare, but the region already has so many overlapping in terms of commuting patterns that separate, unintegrated ticketing systems and railway services won't be able to last long.

The issue then becomes, where do you draw the line? As at the same time, North Wales and West Yorkshire are also developing similar systems, with some overlapping with GM and Merseyside. Every station between Rhyl and Leeds having a PAYG system, with no clear indication of how far you can actually pay as you go, will cause problems.

Looking at City Line services, I doubt much will happen unless the Liverpool-Manchester HSR goes ahead. There just isn't the capacity to run more stopping trains on the Chat Moss and CLC routes. Even if NPR/LMR/HS2 does go ahead though, old PTE-style operations where the Bee Network and City Line services run up to the boundary station (e.g. Warrington or Wigan) with zero coordination isn't a good option due to overlapping commuter patterns. For example, Widnes and Birchwood have plenty of travel to both Liverpool and Manchester.

Without proper service coordination (which GBR should also take part in) you end up with fairly uneven and inefficient routes - for example, Golborne (when it opens) could have services to both Liverpool and Manchester thanks to the western & eastern chord options near Newton-le-Willows. With a direct train, travel times to either major city would be similar. However, the station plans appear to involve 1-2tph to Manchester and absolutely nothing to Liverpool, since the station's in GM (barely). This doesn't help with Liverpool's perpetual game of catch-up against Manchester.
 

Djgr

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Without proper service coordination (which GBR should also take part in) you end up with fairly uneven and inefficient routes - for example, Golborne (when it opens) could have services to both Liverpool and Manchester thanks to the western & eastern chord options near Newton-le-Willows. With a direct train, travel times to either major city would be similar. However, the station plans appear to involve 1-2tph to Manchester and absolutely nothing to Liverpool, since the station's in GM (barely). This doesn't help with Liverpool's perpetual game of catch-up against Manchester.
Golborne is only around 2 miles from Newton-le-Willows station, which has pretty decent services to both Liverpool and Manchester.

One wonders whether the new station is the best use of scarce resources and would have progressed had a holistic LCR/TfGM approach been taken?
 

Farigiraf

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Golborne is only around 2 miles from Newton-le-Willows station, which has pretty decent services to both Liverpool and Manchester.

One wonders whether the new station is the best use of scarce resources and would have progressed had a holistic LCR/TfGM approach been taken?
That's a good point, as currently the bus+train connections from Golborne into both cities are fairly optimal - the hourly 360 bus to NLW, a 10 min wait, then TPE services arrive in both directions. It's only a once-an-hour connection, and 1-change journeys (particularly those involving buses) won't exactly drive modal shift, but it does dramatically reduce the business case for the station.

For £32 million + the space taken up by one path on the Chat Moss Line, you could probably restore 2tph Airport - Lime Street and improve some of the smaller stations (with car/cycle parking and bus connectivity), achieving similar or higher levels of network growth and mode shift. But the novelty factor of a train station definitely weighs in here - it's much more of a vote winner than a couple of mid-tier improvements. Cynically, the proximity to Culcheth (birthplace of the now-PM) may also be a factor.
So yes, if TfLCR had a say in it, decisions made may have been quite different.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It would be nice if a same PAYG fare was available on all routes from Wrexham to Liverpool.
I was intrigued to find that journey planners offered Wrexham to Liverpool via Crewe!
The new through Wrexham-Crewe service connects with Crewe-Liverpool (4tph Avanti or LNR) and sometimes gives an earlier arrival than via Runcorn (with a change at Chester on all but one early train, and into just 1tph).
I wonder if tickets routed "." are valid via Crewe?
 

Tetchytyke

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Golborne is only around 2 miles from Newton-le-Willows station, which has pretty decent services to both Liverpool and Manchester.

One wonders whether the new station is the best use of scarce resources and would have progressed had a holistic LCR/TfGM approach been taken?
The proposed Golborne station serves more than just Golborne and Lowton though. I'd say it is really more about Ashton-in-Makerfield.

Bryn station already gives Ashton a pretty good link into Liverpool (except on Sundays, because Northern) but it's not great for travel towards Manchester. There isn't a direct bus from Ashton to Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown for trains towards Manchester either.

Cynically, the proximity to Culcheth (birthplace of the now-PM) may also be a factor.
See above.

Also: which constituency does our new Prime Minister represent?

For £32 million + the space taken up by one path on the Chat Moss Line
The path is already being used, the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere trains go that way at various points during the day, and there are peak extras from Victoria to Wigan North Western which go that way too.

Getting my crayons out, you could always send the Blackpool to Liverpool train that way instead too, rather than via St Helens.
 

Farigiraf

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The proposed Golborne station serves more than just Golborne and Lowton though. I'd say it is really more about Ashton-in-Makerfield.

Bryn station already gives Ashton a pretty good link into Liverpool (except on Sundays, because Northern) but it's not great for travel towards Manchester. There isn't a direct bus from Ashton to Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown for trains towards Manchester either.
For drivers, NLW station is more convenient than Golborne would be from most places in Ashton-in-Makerfield. Higher frequency, a bit closer, less urban congestion to drive through. For the ~25% of Ashton's population that doesn't drive (of which only a fairly small proportion is likely to be regularly travelling into Manchester), then yes, Golborne is better located. However, a proper bus service connecting NLW station with Ashton requires much less than £32M and 1 valuable Chat Moss line path, and should really exist anyway for interurban connectivity (there is the 22 but it's uselessly slow).

I'm not opposed to the idea of a Golborne station - with decent local bus links, a large car park, and at least 2tph, it would be well used. However, with the limited amount of line capacity pre-LMR, and limited budget, this is one case where upgrading the existing route has equally large potential.

Also: which constituency does our new Prime Minister represent?
The moment he started representing Makerfield constituency is when he stopped being responsible for GM railway developments (and a PM really should not involve themself in small-scale regional infrastructure upgrades). But yes, I've no doubt that Golborne station has made its way quite far up the priority list in the last few months

The path is already being used, the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere trains go that way at various points during the day, and there are peak extras from Victoria to Wigan North Western which go that way too.
If these will be diverted anyway to make space for the Golborne train from 2027, what's stopping diverting them to make space for a second Chat Moss stopper? A few token services a day, retained for route knowledge purposes, shouldn't be preventing the regular, frequent operation of trains the other 99% of the day.

Getting my crayons out, you could always send the Blackpool to Liverpool train that way instead too, rather than via St Helens.
St Helens is certainly not much of a standalone town these days (sorry!) but I still doubt degrading the service level through the town to an all-stops frequent-ish commuter line that's typical of an outer suburb would go down well. It's probably a net positive to keep Huyton-Wigan for a 4-6tph all-stops City Line service and divert others away, but good luck telling the people of St Helens that.
 

Fokx

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There isn't a direct bus from Ashton to Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown for trains towards Manchester either.

Warrington's Own Buses 22 and the evening/sunday Huyton Travel 602 (Both soon to be the LCR Metro 322) serves both Earlestown and Newton Le Willows - although not the quickest of journeys!
 

Kite159

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I was intrigued to find that journey planners offered Wrexham to Liverpool via Crewe!
The new through Wrexham-Crewe service connects with Crewe-Liverpool (4tph Avanti or LNR) and sometimes gives an earlier arrival than via Runcorn (with a change at Chester on all but one early train, and into just 1tph).
I wonder if tickets routed "." are valid via Crewe?

Crewe - Liverpool is only 3tph as one of the Avanti trains skip it. Although now it's been mentioned I wouldn't be surprised if that route gains a "Not Via Crewe" restriction, especially if it undercuts the premium fare TfW charges between Chester & Crewe
 

Watershed

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I was intrigued to find that journey planners offered Wrexham to Liverpool via Crewe!
The new through Wrexham-Crewe service connects with Crewe-Liverpool (4tph Avanti or LNR) and sometimes gives an earlier arrival than via Runcorn (with a change at Chester on all but one early train, and into just 1tph).
I wonder if tickets routed "." are valid via Crewe?
No, they're not. I think some tickets used to be before they updated the maps to reflect the (re)opening of the Halton Curve.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Crewe - Liverpool is only 3tph as one of the Avanti trains skip it. Although now it's been mentioned I wouldn't be surprised if that route gains a "Not Via Crewe" restriction, especially if it undercuts the premium fare TfW charges between Chester & Crewe
There are still plenty of better ways of undercutting the fare TfW want people to pay!
 
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frodshamfella

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The proposed Golborne station serves more than just Golborne and Lowton though. I'd say it is really more about Ashton-in-Makerfield.

Bryn station already gives Ashton a pretty good link into Liverpool (except on Sundays, because Northern) but it's not great for travel towards Manchester. There isn't a direct bus from Ashton to Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown for trains towards Manchester either.


See above.

Also: which constituency does our new Prime Minister represent?


The path is already being used, the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere trains go that way at various points during the day, and there are peak extras from Victoria to Wigan North Western which go that way too.

Getting my crayons out, you could always send the Blackpool to Liverpool train that way instead too, rather than via St Helens.
I think the PM was born in Aintree and he grew up in Culcheth.
 

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