Could a new law prevent the last train of the day being cancelled and replaced with a bus?

Gareth1990 · 1 Aug 2026

Moderator note: Split from

Avanti cancel last train tomorrow

Avanti have emailed today to say they’ve cancelled the last train tomorrow from Euston to Birmingham, which we were due to travel on. We now have to cut our plans short to ensure we get the one before, but if Avanti had not sent the email and we turned up for our original departure time, what...

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Really the last train of the day should be legally protected

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Haywain · 1 Aug 2026

Gareth1990 said:
Really the last train of the day should be legally protected

In what way? A train can't operate if the line is closed or if there is no driver. The train company has a legal obligation to get people to their destination.

Gareth1990 · 1 Aug 2026

Haywain said:
In what way? A train can't operate if the line is closed or if there is no driver. The train company has a legal obligation to get people to their destination.

Which as you very well know is frequently ignored, at least a legal obligation to run a last train can’t as easily be

londonbridge · 1 Aug 2026

dvboy said:
Avanti have emailed today to say they’ve cancelled the last train tomorrow from Euston to Birmingham, which we were due to travel on.

We now have to cut our plans short to ensure we get the one before, but if Avanti had not sent the email and we turned up for our original departure time, what would be our rights and are they negated by the fact Avanti have emailed about the cancellation in advance?

No need to cut plans short, just turn up for your original time and don’t mention any email, they have to make arrangements to get you to your destination. I’ve occasionally had emails turn up in spam when they’ve been landing safely in my inbox for donkeys years and the sender is on my safe list, that’s where your email went and you were unaware of the cancellation until you turned up at the station.

BazingaTribe · 1 Aug 2026

Gareth1990 said:
Which as you very well know is frequently ignored, at least a legal obligation to run a last train can’t as easily be

A law probably couldn't conjure up a driver, a train set or an open line, though.

Huntergreed · 1 Aug 2026

BazingaTribe said:
A law probably couldn't conjure up a driver, a train set or an open line, though.

Agreed - but I think the point being made is that there should be a level of common sense applied which means cancelling the last train should and must be avoided where this is at all possible.

If there needs to be a cancellation, then the operator should initially look at cancelling the second last service and using the crew and/or rolling stock for this to provide the last service if at all possible. This is more desirable than cancelling the last train and potentially leaving some people stranded or with a very long replacement bus journey.

This obviously won’t always be possible for many reasons, but every effort should be made to ensure this is avoided. At the moment, this does not seem to be the case at all.

Haywain · 1 Aug 2026

Gareth1990 said:
at least a legal obligation to run a last train can’t as easily be

So, after the Bedford crash neither EMR or Thameslink could operate their 'last train'. How would a legal obligation have changed anything?

Gareth1990 · 1 Aug 2026

BazingaTribe said:
A law probably couldn't conjure up a driver, a train set or an open line, though.

It might encourage the TOC’s and GBR in future to keep a spare driver on hand for such eventualities

Romsey · 1 Aug 2026

Planned engineering works? Where would they fit in this utiopia??

Gareth1990 · 1 Aug 2026

Romsey said:
Planned engineering works? Where would they fit in this utiopia??

How is it a utopia to have a small pool of spare drivers on call? Honestly only on the railways can it be thought extraordinarily that you’d cancel a service if a driver is off

The exile · 1 Aug 2026

Gareth1990 said:
How is it a utopia to have a small pool of spare drivers on call? Honestly only on the railways can it be thought extraordinarily that you’d cancel a service if a driver is off

Services get cancelled is a driver is “off” and no one from that pool is available.

JonathanH · 1 Aug 2026

Gareth1990 said:
How is it a utopia to have a small pool of spare drivers on call? Honestly only on the railways can it be thought extraordinarily that you’d cancel a service if a driver is off

Needs to be a pool of spare guards on many routes as well.

nineteenninety · 1 Aug 2026

What about engineering works, is it cheaper to delay the works so the last train can get past if it is delayed, subsequently causing overrunning engineering works and footing the bill for that the next morning? Or just send people on a taxi / bus?

baz962 · 1 Aug 2026

Gareth1990 said:
How is it a utopia to have a small pool of spare drivers on call? Honestly only on the railways can it be thought extraordinarily that you’d cancel a service if a driver is off

Well first of all you didn't reply to @Haywain above re the Bedford crash. Not only were all lines closed for a week , but drivers weren't happy to drive straight after, having lost a colleague.

I was driving the last Sheffield to London one night and it got cancelled at Derby, because some scally nicked the signalling cable near Flitwick and we had no signals. Or what about a fatality/suicide?

Also if a train has a fault and it can’t run in service and a replacement is a few hours away, probably quicker by taxi .

AlterEgo · 1 Aug 2026

Gareth1990 said:
How is it a utopia to have a small pool of spare drivers on call? Honestly only on the railways can it be thought extraordinarily that you’d cancel a service if a driver is off

Are you under the impression that there are no staff on spare turns on the railway?

How would your proposal deal with things like line closures?

Romsey · 1 Aug 2026

nineteenninety said:
What about engineering works, is it cheaper to delay the works so the last train can get past if it is delayed, subsequently causing overrunning engineering works and footing the bill for that the next morning? Or just send people on a taxi / bus?

With the costs of larger engineering blockades and the delay attribution for a late finish, bus or taxi is the cheap option for the last train for both the TOC and engineering work manager.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2026 ==

Spare train crew on a Saturday evening?
Comedy hour has started early today .....

Peter0124 · 1 Aug 2026

If staffing means that one train can't run, then cancel the second last service.

Somewhat on this topic is the last train on my route being booked to run express, presumably for traincrew familarisation. Why not do that with an earlier service? No other services on this route do that and it's effectively denying passengers a later last train, and in this case, one which connects with two cross-border services.

Romsey · 1 Aug 2026

Peter0124 said:
If staffing means that one train can't run, then cancel the second last service.

Simplistic, maybe, but what if the train crew go "over hours" by working a later service.
They either say "no" or take the overtime and then are entitled to their full rest period which could affect the services the following day.

SuspectUsual · 1 Aug 2026

Peter0124 said:
If staffing means that one train can't run, then cancel the second last service.

But it won’t that simple is it? There are rules around hours worked, so if the driver for the penultimate train would be “out of hours” for the last one, he can’t just be moved.

(Or, using one of the standard forum edge cases, how does that work on the Kyle or far north lines when the penultimate train has left long before anyone knows there’s a problem crewing the last one?)

Ultimately, coming back to the original question, any new law would be of negligible value because there’d be words like “reasonable” and “wherever possible” in it which would of course be interpreted however the TOC wanted

AlterEgo · 1 Aug 2026

Peter0124 said:
If staffing means that one train can't run, then cancel the second last service.

Somewhat on this topic is the last train on my route being booked to run express, presumably for traincrew familarisation.

Familiarisation with what?

Peter0124 · 1 Aug 2026

AlterEgo said:
Familiarisation with what?

Route knowledge via a divisionary?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L88747/2026-08-12

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L88750/2026-08-12

Take for example an earlier service compared to the last, why run non-stop from Cambuslang to Motherwell on that particular one, denying passengers on other stations a later service?

baz962 · 1 Aug 2026

Peter0124 said:
If staffing means that one train can't run, then cancel the second last service.

But if it’s staffing you can't do that. As a driver if im booked to drive back from up north at say 9pm on the second to last service and the train is sitting there then there are now two problems. You will have one set of staff , but two trains blocking the platforms and depending on what im doing the next day , you can't change my hours suddenly. If im working I need at least 12 hours between shifts and if im not i won't be going over my maximum day to hang around to drive the last train. If im not going over my hours and not doing anything else the next day I might out of goodwill.

AlterEgo · 1 Aug 2026

Peter0124 said:
Route knowledge via a divisionary?

They wouldn't make a one off delay/diversion "just because", you can gain route knowledge via other means. Many services are regularly booked to use unusual stretches specifically for route knowledge retention purposes.

Peter0124 · 1 Aug 2026

AlterEgo said:
They wouldn't make a one off delay/diversion "just because", you can gain route knowledge via other means. Many services are regularly booked to use unusual stretches specifically for route knowledge retention purposes.

I have edited my previous post to include the services in question, the point is I don't agree with them making what could be the last train of the day for many people, an express purely for traincrew purposes or route retention (it goes mainline after Cambuslang). Especially when said train is the only one connecting off two London-Glasgow arrivals.

I don't know why they do it but I'm assuming its to do with traincrew route retention. Which is fine, just pick the service before.

AlterEgo · 1 Aug 2026

Peter0124 said:
I have edited my previous post to include the services in question, the point is I don't agree with them making what could be the last train of the day for many people, an express purely for traincrew purposes or route retention (it goes mainline after Cambuslang). Especially when said train is the only one connecting off two London-Glasgow arrivals.

I don't know why they do it but I'm assuming its to do with traincrew route retention. Which is fine, just pick the service before.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand, which is service disruption? This is regularly booked work, and very common in the industry.

Haywain · 1 Aug 2026

Peter0124 said:
I have edited my previous post to include the services in question, the point is I don't agree with them making what could be the last train of the day for many people, an express purely for traincrew purposes.

But it's not a service alteration, it's just the scheduled service.

Peter0124 · 1 Aug 2026

It may be irrelevant to the original topic, which to an extent it is, but it is still something worth mentioning. By all means we can start a new thread about this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2026 ==

AlterEgo said:
What does this have to do with the topic at hand, which is service disruption? This is regularly booked work, and very common in the industry.

Gareth1990 · 1 Aug 2026

If rail companies actually complied with the law and national rail conditions there wouldn’t be the need for a legally mandated last service…

AlterEgo · 1 Aug 2026

Gareth1990 said:
If rail companies actually complied with the law and national rail conditions there wouldn’t be the need for a legally mandated last service…

As you have already established they don't comply with the law, what purpose does a new law serve in this respect?

Gareth1990 · 1 Aug 2026

AlterEgo said:
As you have already established they don't comply with the law, what purpose does a new law serve in this respect?

I just feel it would be harder both morally and realistically for Rail Companies to justify breaking two laws than just the one at present

Could a new law prevent the last train of the day being cancelled and replaced with a bus?

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