brad465
Veteran Member
The latest RAIL magazine has just dropped and it has an item that says the 6x off lease 221s are set to go to EMR on a short-term basis ('a few months'), then will head over to XC.
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Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?
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londonmidland
Established Member
I wonder where they got their information from? Though that would put the jigsaw pieces together, with the new managing director stating that a ‘plan’ will be revealed in the next few weeks..
Kite159
Veteran Member
It will probably take a few months to get staff trained on the various differences between a 221 & 222.
I presume a 221 voyager has already been cleared to work Leicester to St Pancras, unless they are planning to keep them north of Leicester.
duffield
Established Member
I'm really surprised at this, you'd think that the training involved would be disruptive and take long enough that this would not help the situation. Surely them going to EMR for "a few months" would be barely enough to get them into passenger service there at all? Or are they so very similar that converting drivers and onboard staff from 222s to 221s is pretty trivial?
At least they don't have to worry about the reservation systems being incompatible!
duffield
Established Member
I suppose the emergency timetable means there are actually "spare" drivers?
Clansman
Established Member
In what way would it be smarter for ScotRail to do this? It would be only to their disadvantage to ever agree to that.
Speed43125
Member
Do we know if these will be maintained at Central Rivers?
If so that's at least 4 or 5 extra diagrams you could reasonably expect to have covered everyday, once they've got them all brought up to spec. - Does anyone know if the off-lease 221s are in warm or cold storage?
londonmidland
Established Member
Route wise, they're definitely cleared Wigston-Leicester-Derby & Nottingham.
I'm not sure if a train physically needs to be sent down a route for it to be deemed safe/route cleared nowadays, as I believe route clearance can be done digitally via various set profiles.
Although I wouldn't be surprised to see a series of test runs up and down the MML, prior to them entering public service, as you'll still need staff physically training on them.
Good news especially about them then heading to XC.
One big concern is what sort of damage are EMR and Hitachi going to do to the 221s while they have them?
D365
Veteran Member
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Is it known that any Class 221s will be based at Etches Park, rather than Central Rivers?
MargaretNoodle
Member
That's great news if true. I wonder what they would do about Long Eaton, as it can only take 4 cars and from reading another thread I don't believe the Class 221s have SDO? Keep them on the Sheffield Fasts and the Nottinghams perhaps - is there much interworking needed?
Edit: Actually further reading I think there is a method of working for short platforms now. Ignore me.
Edit: Actually further reading I think there is a method of working for short platforms now. Ignore me.
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No idea, let's just hope for everyone's sake that it's Central Rivers.
If it's Etches Park, the Rosco need to make sure the maintenance part of the contract is watertight.
Would Etches Park even have room for additional units?
Also, if they can't even keep up with maintenance of the 222/810s I can hardly see them basing the 221s there, especially as it will technically be a new fleet for the Hitachi staff to have to learn.
They need to be left alone to focus on there current fleets and let Central Rivers focus on the 221s.
Perhaps buy a return from Sheffield to London and travel via Doncaster and buy a separate ticket Chesterfield - Sheffield or X17 bus to Sheffield?
Agree the Tamworth option is far from ideal…!
I agree and hopefully this is how thing pan out, but we've seen plenty of questionable decisions over the years across the rail industry...
Hi all,
I’ve seen from numerous sources now that EMR are going to loan the 221s that are currently in storage to cover for the 222s that are out of service (either due to moving up north or just having failed). I haven’t however seen anyone mention it here yet- could anyone confirm whether this is actually happening or if it’s just wishful thinking? Thanks
I’ve seen from numerous sources now that EMR are going to loan the 221s that are currently in storage to cover for the 222s that are out of service (either due to moving up north or just having failed). I haven’t however seen anyone mention it here yet- could anyone confirm whether this is actually happening or if it’s just wishful thinking? Thanks
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What are your sources? Are you able to cite them? This may help the forum as a collective speculate on their reliability.
Crithylum
Member
I’m pretty sure it has been discussed in the forum over the past day or 2, either in the 810 stopgap speculation thread or 222 reliability thread.
I wonder if it’s part of a deal being drawn up by Alstom? Eg, they come back in to help fix the 222s (again), whilst also allowing the use of the “reserved” 6 that were due to go to their W&S operation keeping them turned over nicely.
After all, they are proving some technical support to Hitachi whilst Hitachi remain key maintenance providers. One of those deals that rather helps everyone.
After all, they are proving some technical support to Hitachi whilst Hitachi remain key maintenance providers. One of those deals that rather helps everyone.
Whilst it sounds like a good idea on paper, nobody at EMR will have 221s on their traction card.
Chances are they're similar enough to 222s that a relatively short course would be required but, as with the 810s, they'd need a sizeable number of staff trained before they could make use of them.
Chances are they're similar enough to 222s that a relatively short course would be required but, as with the 810s, they'd need a sizeable number of staff trained before they could make use of them.
dk1
Veteran Member
Its going to require more training as you say but I suppose the reduced service is a saving grace.
Spartacus
Established Member
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If it happened I could see a situation like what happened on TPE in their early recovery period where cancellations increased while crews were trained on different traction, which was ultimately wasted when one type was withdrawn, a decision taken out of TPE's hands when things had actually improved. In EMR's case they'd know all along it was only a short term measure. Short term pain, but no real long term gain.
bunnahabhain
Established Member
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I don't think anybody is able to cite a source at present. There's something coming, it isn't confirmed what it is yet, but it can't really be anything other than 221s or 180s.
Good idea, let me have a look and see where i got it from. I believe it was two different accounts on X, so not exactly the pinnacle of truth, hence I came here
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Apparently it’s being reported in the RAIL magazine:
https://x.com/harleystravels/status/2083627872002941166?s=46&t=qeyIOkv7b8GAcfL7u9XBaw
https://x.com/RichFromRail/status/2083641653818986698?s=20
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RUK
Member
Well, better late than never for the stored Class 221s to be put into use.
HamworthyGoods
Established Member
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Where do you find the additional cl225 sets from?
It’s very unreasonable. The east coast timetable as it is now requires the performance of the Azumas and small handful of remaining (now shortened) 225 sets to work. Stick any more full length 225 sets in and you’ll decimate the ecml timetable performance. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is really not advisable.
Then there is the problem of extra 225 sets. Where will they come from? The majority of the unused ones were scrapped or are so far beyond economical repair that it’s a non-starter.
Finally, you have the issues of clearance of Azumas on the MML. Are they cleared for the full route(s)? Do the EMR staff sign them? Will they need a program of training for drivers, guards and first class hosts? Will the unions accept?
Really, it’s not as simple as just moving a few members of a different fleet across to cover.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Well all I can say is good luck. The ex AWC 221s that have been returned to use by XC are not the most reliable in the fleet, and they stood for a shorter time than these six.
Gonna be interesting
londonmidland
Established Member
I don’t think anything has yet officially been confirmed. However, the 221s are pretty much the only suitable option to cover the timetable, with the ongoing rolling stock issues.
All of the 222s are supposed to be gone from EMR by the end of the year. With the 810s, who knows how long it’ll take to fix them, as well as how complex all of their issues are.
We don’t know how long the revised timetable will last for, either.
A lot of questions but not a lot of answers. Though I’m sure as time goes on, things will become clearer.
All of the 222s are supposed to be gone from EMR by the end of the year. With the 810s, who knows how long it’ll take to fix them, as well as how complex all of their issues are.
We don’t know how long the revised timetable will last for, either.
A lot of questions but not a lot of answers. Though I’m sure as time goes on, things will become clearer.