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Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

takno

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These are effectively the same point - if the Treasury decides that the railways will get say £4 billion per year subsidy, then every pound of extra revenue from LNER means an extra pound that can be spent on either operational subsidy for other lines, or on investment on increasing capacity on busy lines
That presupposes that the treasury don't regard LNER services themselves as worthy of subsidy. Much of the reason rail gets a subsidy is to improve the environment by moving passengers from air/road to train, and clearly one way to achieve this is to allow LNER to run at break-even or a small loss.

Equally, LNER serves an important social mobility and national unity function in letting people get between Scotland and London affordably and without ridiculous amounts of advance planning. We generally regard this as so important that half the cost of the wildly expensive sleeper is subsidized, so it seems odd to demand what amounts to a tax on the affordable trains which can be used by people who aren't American tourists or assorted Hoi polloi.

The fact that LNER _can_ run at a profit (nominally, if you discount track costs enough) doesn't mean that you are maximising public benefit by making it do so.
 
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yorksrob

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And look, trains to Scotland are really expensive, no doubt about it. But it would be very bad policy if they were expensive and full of empty seats. Today's 0803 has no seats at all in standard class available. Same for the 0833, 0903, in fact quite a few trains today.

That sounds like an argument that the route might be deserving of more subsidy - in order to get all the trains on it up to full length !
 

AlterEgo

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That sounds like an argument that the route might be deserving of more subsidy - in order to get all the trains on it up to full length !
To extend them further you need to first procure new rolling stock and then conduct a huge renewal of infrastructure so all the trains fit platforms and junctions. For that billion pounds or so, you could make enormous difference to local journeys more rapidly and deliver more social change to people further towards the bottom end of the income ladder.
 

absolutelymilk

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That presupposes that the treasury don't regard LNER services themselves as worthy of subsidy. Much of the reason rail gets a subsidy is to improve the environment by moving passengers from air/road to train, and clearly one way to achieve this is to allow LNER to run at break-even or a small loss.
Not quite - if the Treasury decide that the railways get £4 billion of subsidy, then the DfT can then decide how that should be split. Should it be (to simplify massively) £2 billion each for intercity and non-intercity services, £1 billion for intercity and £3 billion for non-intercity, or get intercity to maximise revenue and break even, allowing £4 billion for non-intercity services. Either way the more you raise from intercity passengers the more you have for other services (or investment).

I think you're assuming as well that passenger numbers have decreased due to the new ticketing system, but they've been growing at over 2 million a year for the past two years. I suspect this is because the new system is effectively pushing people to the services they will pay for, e.g. if I would previously have been happy paying £100 for the first off-peak service, but if it's going to be £120 for that train then I'll instead wait a couple of hours and pay £70 for an advance, but I'll still travel. The side benefit of this is obviously that loadings are more spread out, so you're less likely to get people standing and increasing dwell times.
 

yorksrob

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To extend them further you need to first procure new rolling stock and then conduct a huge renewal of infrastructure so all the trains fit platforms and junctions. For that billion pounds or so, you could make enormous difference to local journeys more rapidly and deliver more social change to people further towards the bottom end of the income ladder.

The additional trains are needed, I agree, however there are still trains on the route that are shorter than the available infrastructure.
 

AlterEgo

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The additional trains are needed, I agree, however there are still trains on the route that are shorter than the available infrastructure.
On London to Edinburgh it's all 9 car. Though there is no doubt pressure caused by TPE and XC on the northern part of the route with trains which are definitely too short.
 

yorksrob

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On London to Edinburgh it's all 9 car. Though there is no doubt pressure caused by TPE and XC on the northern part of the route with trains which are definitely too short.

Lumo isn't. Those trains need to be longer by the sound of it.
 

AlterEgo

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Lumo isn't. Those trains need to be longer by the sound of it.
They're Open Access so aren't really in play, I am not certain their model works with longer trains given their staffing arrangements.
 

318266

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To extend them further you need to first procure new rolling stock and then conduct a huge renewal of infrastructure so all the trains fit platforms and junctions. For that billion pounds or so, you could make enormous difference to local journeys more rapidly and deliver more social change to people further towards the bottom end of the income ladder.
I don't think you need to do much infrastructure improvements, if you just insert another Standard coach into the 9 car Azumas, given that some of the Scottish services are already 2x5 car? That would give you another 88 seats on most services, and probably would be inexpensive in comparison to other options.
 

yorksrob

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They're Open Access so aren't really in play, I am not certain their model works with longer trains given their staffing arrangements.

They have bought extra trains from Hitachi for exactly this purpose (as well as Hull trains and the Carmarthen service).

Ah well that's a step forward.

I don't have a problem with open access, so long as it uses the space efficiently.
 

Tetchytyke

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On London to Edinburgh it's all 9 car.
However, on London to Newcastle LNER routinely operate five-carriage trains.

Given the Edinburgh Festival starts tomorrow, I'd expect the trains to Edinburgh to be full of people going to Edinburgh. In 'normal' times though, there is usually a pretty heft churn of passengers at Newcastle.
 

Farigiraf

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I think you're assuming as well that passenger numbers have decreased due to the new ticketing system, but they've been growing at over 2 million a year for the past two years. I suspect this is because the new system is effectively pushing people to the services they will pay for, e.g. if I would previously have been happy paying £100 for the first off-peak service, but if it's going to be £120 for that train then I'll instead wait a couple of hours and pay £70 for an advance, but I'll still travel. The side benefit of this is obviously that loadings are more spread out, so you're less likely to get people standing and increasing dwell times.
I don't think anyone's disagreeing that the LNER trial is achieving its intended purpose - as long as we recognise that the purpose is reducing subsidy, not simplifying fares. Demand is high enough on the railway that you can definitely get away with price-gouging travellers on the busiest trains, prioritising higher fare-payers, while lower farepayers have to adjust their lifestyle around the cheapest trains.

Where the debate lies is whether that's justified or not. For a service that ultimately is funded by the taxpayer (even if the trains aren't, the infrastructure is), which is meant to function as a public utility, just as the motorways are, to get from A to B across the country, any sort of favouritism or segregation between passengers, based on how much they're willing to pay, isn't exactly a progressive policy. The majority of the populace wouldn't accept government-sponsored schools/hospitals/motorways run for profit either with e.g. higher-bracket taxpayers getting waiting list priority.

My opinion is that some amount of optimising for cost-effectiveness is fully logical, it's simple budgeting strategy. But when you take it too far, looking at what exactly would reduce the cost of living the most, and drive the most modal shift, with the best value for taxpayer money, with no room for any leeway, you create societal habits that are hard to reverse. Public opinion 20 years from now can't be measured on a spreadsheet.

The long-term effect of such policies is almost always understated and underestimated - for example letting the long-distance railway network operate as a minimal-subsidy airline-style market will certainly over time create a status quo which pictures a high-quality Intercity/HSR network as a toy for the wealthy, while everyone else can take Lumo-style trains or drive. The result: you get a significant portion of your voterbase that just doesn't care at all about railway investment because it doesn't affect them, and car dependency for long-distance travel remains a thing for another few decades.

For example, most people in the UK rarely travel on British Airways, a fairly good quality airline, and therefore any BA developments or investments into Heathrow/City don't affect them at all, on the face of it at least. That's not because they wouldn't like a decent service offering, but because the budget airlines are the only affordable option for many. However, as it's been almost 30 years since the start of mainstream budget airlines (i.e. airline price-based segregation), people accept that they have to take the crappy option that's likely to be late, uncomfortable, and with few passenger rights, if they want to travel affordably abroad, because that's how it's been for so long, and it's too difficult to change it now. Before the railways reach this point, surely it's worth thinking about whether this is what's best for everyone.

That's not to mention that if GBR wants to fill empty seats on peak-time trains, releasing more advance fares is still an option, no need to remove the off-peak walk-up fare. It's not perfect - still no flexibility, but if we're not prepared to pay for a more affordable railway, while at the same time still wanting high utilisation and no dynamic pricing, it's the only opton.
 
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absolutelymilk

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I don't think anyone's disagreeing that the LNER trial is achieving its intended purpose - as long as we recognise that the purpose is reducing subsidy, not simplifying fares. Demand is high enough on the railway that you can definitely get away with price-gouging travellers on the busiest trains, prioritising higher fare-payers, while lower farepayers have to adjust their lifestyle around the cheapest trains.

Where the debate lies is whether that's justified or not. For a service that ultimately is funded by the taxpayer (even if the trains aren't, the infrastructure is), which is meant to function as a public utility, just as the motorways are, to get from A to B across the country, any sort of favouritism or segregation between passengers, based on how much they're willing to pay, isn't exactly a progressive policy. The majority of the populace wouldn't accept government-sponsored schools/hospitals/motorways run for profit either with e.g. higher-bracket taxpayers getting waiting list priority.
I think we are all happy with charging more for peak services, and I don't see how this is different. Effectively what it's doing is 1. smoothing out the current shoulder of peak/off-peak services and 2. charging more for off-peak trains where there is a lot of demand if there is (for example) a big event in Newcastle that lots of people are travelling to. So if I do definitely need to get one particular train to get there in time, then I will pay for that, but if not then I'll go earlier and wait around for a bit, or if I'm not going for that event then I might go later on.
That's not to mention that if GBR wants to fill empty seats on peak-time trains, releasing more advance fares is still an option, no need to remove the off-peak walk-up fare. It's not perfect - still no flexibility, but if we're not prepared to pay for a more affordable railway, while at the same time still wanting high utilisation and no dynamic pricing, it's the only opton.
The issue is that if off-peak tickets still exist, then they have to leave some tickets unsold to leave space for those people, whereas if they effectively move to advance tickets only, then they can (Ryanair style) fill every seat.
 

Farigiraf

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I think we are all happy with charging more for peak services
Are we? It's just a yield-management tool to compensate for slow progress on investment in capacity upgrades. There are numerous countries with similar railway network operations to ours which don't charge peak time premiums, it's just that UK railway demand is high enough that doing that here, right now, would cause even more overcrowding. It's a compromise, not a viable long-term strategy, if you want any growth.
charging more for off-peak trains where there is a lot of demand if there is (for example) a big event in Newcastle that lots of people are travelling to
LNER weren't exactly leaving people behind following events back when there was still a price cap. It's just raising the price by 100 or so pounds because many passengers don't have an alternative. I'm guessing you'd take no issue in paying for that extra £100, but for others it's the difference between going or not going to the event. It just adds more complexity to the rail timetable, so I'm not necessarily advocating for it, but it would be amusing to see the uproar from LNER if Lumo had the rights to run matchday specials and slightly undercut LNER's fares

So if I do definitely need to get one particular train to get there in time, then I will pay for that
Not everybody can, or is willing to.
but if not then I'll go earlier and wait around for a bit, or if I'm not going for that event then I might go later on.
And this is an efficient use of your time? The railway should be designed around passenger travel patterns, not the other way round.

The issue is that if off-peak tickets still exist, then they have to leave some tickets unsold to leave space for those people, whereas if they effectively move to advance tickets only, then they can (Ryanair style) fill every seat.
That's only if you have mandatory reservations in place. For the small number of trains where all seats are already taken by advance ticket holders, I think people would still prefer standing (or moving around whenever a seat becomes available) but arriving at an optimal time, rather than either paying a lot more and getting a seat or travelling at a less convenient time. You can still reserve seats in advance on walk-up tickets, by the way. It's very much not a good operating model, and should be improved upon with time, but on Ryanair for example, I can think of many travellers (myself included) who would be fine with standing on e.g. 1 in 10 short flights if it saves a few hours or a few hundred pounds - though on planes this is much less feasible/safe/pleasant than on trains.
 

yorksrob

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I don't think anyone's disagreeing that the LNER trial is achieving its intended purpose - as long as we recognise that the purpose is reducing subsidy, not simplifying fares. Demand is high enough on the railway that you can definitely get away with price-gouging travellers on the busiest trains, prioritising higher fare-payers, while lower farepayers have to adjust their lifestyle around the cheapest trains.

Where the debate lies is whether that's justified or not. For a service that ultimately is funded by the taxpayer (even if the trains aren't, the infrastructure is), which is meant to function as a public utility, just as the motorways are, to get from A to B across the country, any sort of favouritism or segregation between passengers, based on how much they're willing to pay, isn't exactly a progressive policy. The majority of the populace wouldn't accept government-sponsored schools/hospitals/motorways run for profit either with e.g. higher-bracket taxpayers getting waiting list priority.

My opinion is that some amount of optimising for cost-effectiveness is fully logical, it's simple budgeting strategy. But when you take it too far, looking at what exactly would reduce the cost of living the most, and drive the most modal shift, with the best value for taxpayer money, with no room for any leeway, you create societal habits that are hard to reverse. Public opinion 20 years from now can't be measured on a spreadsheet.

The long-term effect of such policies is almost always understated and underestimated - for example letting the long-distance railway network operate as a minimal-subsidy airline-style market will certainly over time create a status quo which pictures a high-quality Intercity/HSR network as a toy for the wealthy, while everyone else can take Lumo-style trains or drive. The result: you get a significant portion of your voterbase that just doesn't care at all about railway investment because it doesn't affect them, and car dependency for long-distance travel remains a thing for another few decades.

For example, most people in the UK rarely travel on British Airways, a fairly good quality airline, and therefore any BA developments or investments into Heathrow/City don't affect them at all, on the face of it at least. That's not because they wouldn't like a decent service offering, but because the budget airlines are the only affordable option for many. However, as it's been almost 30 years since the start of mainstream budget airlines (i.e. airline price-based segregation), people accept that they have to take the crappy option that's likely to be late, uncomfortable, and with few passenger rights, if they want to travel affordably abroad, because that's how it's been for so long, and it's too difficult to change it now. Before the railways reach this point, surely it's worth thinking about whether this is what's best for everyone.

That's not to mention that if GBR wants to fill empty seats on peak-time trains, releasing more advance fares is still an option, no need to remove the off-peak walk-up fare. It's not perfect - still no flexibility, but if we're not prepared to pay for a more affordable railway, while at the same time still wanting high utilisation and no dynamic pricing, it's the only opton.

This is probably the most sensible post in a long time. A certain amount of yield management is to be expected - welcome even if it makes otherwise unoccupied space available at a cheaper price.

However, to take this approach to extremis by removing off peak walk on travel alltogether will damage the railway in the mind of the public

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think we are all happy with charging more for peak services, and I don't see how this is different. Effectively what it's doing is 1. smoothing out the current shoulder of peak/off-peak services and 2. charging more for off-peak trains where there is a lot of demand if there is (for example) a big event in Newcastle that lots of people are travelling to. So if I do definitely need to get one particular train to get there in time, then I will pay for that, but if not then I'll go earlier and wait around for a bit, or if I'm not going for that event then I might go later on.

The issue is that if off-peak tickets still exist, then they have to leave some tickets unsold to leave space for those people, whereas if they effectively move to advance tickets only, then they can (Ryanair style) fill every seat.

It's entirely different.

The "anytime fare" is not in the realms of possibility for most people. Getting rid of off-peak turns the railway into an airline on wheels.

Michael O'Leary can offer his bog standard service as he wishes. As a private company not requiring public funding, that is his perogative.

As a taxpaying passenger, I expect more than bog standard steerage from the passenger railway - that means the option not to have to book an unspecified time in advance to book a train ticket that doesn't require re-mortgaging the house.
 
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absolutelymilk

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That's only if you have mandatory reservations in place. For the small number of trains where all seats are already taken by advance ticket holders, I think people would still prefer standing (or moving around whenever a seat becomes available) but arriving at an optimal time, rather than either paying a lot more and getting a seat or travelling at a less convenient time. You can still reserve seats in advance on walk-up tickets, by the way. It's very much not a good operating model, and should be improved upon with time, but on Ryanair for example, I can think of many travellers (myself included) who would be fine with standing on e.g. 1 in 10 short flights if it saves a few hours or a few hundred pounds - though on planes this is much less feasible/safe/pleasant than on trains.
The problem is that off-peak ticket-holders won't spread evenly. So you have to leave a lot of seats free if you're aiming to have a max of (say) 105% capacity, assuming some people won't turn up and some are happy to stand. If you need to leave 150 seats free for off-peak ticket holders on every train, then some trains will have all those seats filled but others will only fill a few of them and you therefore have unused capacity

And this is an efficient use of your time? The railway should be designed around passenger travel patterns, not the other way round.
If I'm going for leisure purposes then I would generally be happy to wait around and either have a look around the city of the station I'm going to, or spend more time with the friends I'm going to visit. If I'm travelling with work then they're paying and I'll get the best train (on an advanced ticket) probably regardless of how much it costs!
 

yorksrob

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If I'm going for leisure purposes then I would generally be happy to wait around and either have a look around the city of the station I'm going to, or spend more time with the friends I'm going to visit. If I'm travelling with work then they're paying and I'll get the best train (on an advanced ticket) probably regardless of how much it costs!

You forget that flexible fares allow people to wait around for another train. In fact, I have done this on various occasions.
 

Tetchytyke

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The issue is that if off-peak tickets still exist, then they have to leave some tickets unsold to leave space for those people, whereas if they effectively move to advance tickets only, then they can (Ryanair style) fill every seat.
No they don't. The purchase of a flexible walk-up ticket doesn't guarantee you a seat. If there are no seats left, you stand. This is the same now with the Anytime ticket.

The only reason why they've got rid of the off-peak tickets is because those off-peak tickets were the regulated fare. This meant that they acted as an effective price cap.

Stagecoach management wanted rid of the price cap because it restricted their ability to price-gouge. Stagecoach management became LNER management, and they still wanted rid of the price cap because it restricted their ability to price-gouge. Regrettably, the DfT agreed to it, so now we have LNER price-gouging.
This is probably the most sensible post in a long time. A certain amount of yield management is to be expected - welcome even if it makes otherwise unoccupied space available at a cheaper price.
I don't have a problem with yield management and a certain level of dynamic pricing. But there needs to be a price cap in place for that yield management and dynamic pricing otherwise it simply becomes an exercise in price-gouging.

LNER are effectively a monopoly on most of the ECML. Without a robust price cap in place there is nothing to prevent the company from engaging in price-gouging and other predatory behaviour. We've seen that with the way ticket prices on LNER have risen sharply since DfT agreed to allow LNER to remove the price cap.

Comparisons with Ryanair are very unhelpful because Ryanair do not have a functional monopoly on the vast majority of routes they operate. LNER does. But can you imagine what Ryanair would be like if they did have an effective monopoly on a route?!?
 

absolutelymilk

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You forget that flexible fares allow people to wait around for another train. In fact, I have done this on various occasions.
Sorry my point was unclear, I was saying that for some leisure travellers (including myself), they would travel earlier/later to get a cheaper ticket and then do something else at their destination (or have a bit less time at their destination). For example we are going to visit some friends this weekend and would like to spend at least a full day there, but other than that I don't have any requirements. If the pricing system wants to direct me to the cheapest ticket (and likely the least busy train) then that's fine with me whether that's Friday night or Saturday daytime/evening.

No they don't. The purchase of a flexible walk-up ticket doesn't guarantee you a seat. If there are no seats left, you stand. This is the same now with the Anytime ticket.
You don't have the right to a seat, but intercity operators (for hopefully obvious reasons) don't plan to have 50% more people than seats even on the busiest trains (disruption aside), so they need to leave some free for the people on off-peak tickets, particularly on the trains immediately after the end of the afternoon peak.
 

yorksrob

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No they don't. The purchase of a flexible walk-up ticket doesn't guarantee you a seat. If there are no seats left, you stand. This is the same now with the Anytime ticket.

The only reason why they've got rid of the off-peak tickets is because those off-peak tickets were the regulated fare. This meant that they acted as an effective price cap.

Stagecoach management wanted rid of the price cap because it restricted their ability to price-gouge. Stagecoach management became LNER management, and they still wanted rid of the price cap because it restricted their ability to price-gouge. Regrettably, the DfT agreed to it, so now we have LNER price-gouging.

I don't have a problem with yield management and a certain level of dynamic pricing. But there needs to be a price cap in place for that yield management and dynamic pricing otherwise it simply becomes an exercise in price-gouging.

LNER are effectively a monopoly on most of the ECML. Without a robust price cap in place there is nothing to prevent the company from engaging in price-gouging and other predatory behaviour. We've seen that with the way ticket prices on LNER have risen sharply since DfT agreed to allow LNER to remove the price cap.

Comparisons with Ryanair are very unhelpful because Ryanair do not have a functional monopoly on the vast majority of routes they operate. LNER does. But can you imagine what Ryanair would be like if they did have an effective monopoly on a route?!?

Indeed. i think that the removal of off-peak meets the definition of predatory market behaviour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Sorry my point was unclear, I was saying that for some leisure travellers (including myself), they would travel earlier/later to get a cheaper ticket and then do something else at their destination (or have a bit less time at their destination). For example we are going to visit some friends this weekend and would like to spend at least a full day there, but other than that I don't have any requirements. If the pricing system wants to direct me to the cheapest ticket (and likely the least busy train) then that's fine with me whether that's Friday night or Saturday daytime/evening.

But you already have that option.

At the moment, as a passenger you can evaluate the benefit of building in Plenty of time padding and hanging around for that specific train - or paying more for a reasonably (albeit not cheap) priced off-peak ticket which gives you a choice of trains to catch.

Why remove that choice from passengers ?
 

Farigiraf

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Michael O'Leary can offer his bog standard service as he wishes. As a private company not requiring public funding, that is his perogative.
If you disregard the enormous tax breaks airlines receive. Take them away, and the Ryanair model quickly deteriorates.

The problem is that off-peak ticket-holders won't spread evenly. So you have to leave a lot of seats free if you're aiming to have a max of (say) 105% capacity, assuming some people won't turn up and some are happy to stand. If you need to leave 150 seats free for off-peak ticket holders on every train, then some trains will have all those seats filled but others will only fill a few of them and you therefore have unused capacity
You're right that if you're optimising for full trains then having an unreserved section of the train isn't efficient. But I do think that aiming for maybe 95% loading is still better overall. There are a few reasons why:
- Demand can't be evenly predicted perfectly, even with dynamic pricing. People refund/amend tickets all the time, and the theoretical solution to this - which is releasing cheap advance fares shortly before the train runs - rarely happens, and even so, people won't organise their life around the small possibility of a cheap advance becoming available last minute. Those who want cheap fares have learned to book well in advance, so chances are that this cheap short-notice advance will be purchased by a traveller who'd have been prepared to pay more anyway.

- The number of people booking intercity trips short-notice on walk-up fares is minimal anyway. That'll change if the network has the capacity to reduce the walk-up fare prices to fill seats, but at the moment, even those travelling on walk-up fares will be buying early enough that they can also reserve their seat.

- Having around 5-10% of seats not instantly filled by advance ticket holders is essentially an insurance policy for if things go wrong. Cancellations happen regularly. Plus in most cases it prevents the poor PR of having to stand on an intercity service, while still not pricing off travellers wanting to travel last-minute or flexibly.

That's before we even mention the many intercity services with lots of short-distance travel with no alternatives (e.g. Darlington to York).
Essentially, any solution other than actually creating more capacity on the railways will have to be a compromise with pros and cons. An important consideration with any compromise solution is that you don't make things significantly more difficult for yourself in the long-term, just for some short-term relief.

If I'm going for leisure purposes then I would generally be happy to wait around and either have a look around the city of the station I'm going to, or spend more time with the friends I'm going to visit.
And that's fine, but you shouldn't be forced to pick one or the other based on how much you can afford. It's the same rolling stock, just an hour or two apart.
If I'm travelling with work then they're paying and I'll get the best train (on an advanced ticket) probably regardless of how much it costs!
I suppose it's obvious that there are many cases where this doesn't work out so easily. For one, non-work travel that's time constrained, at a time of high demand. Plus if the high-demand trains that are priced for business travel get too expensive, it's often in the workplace's interest to disincentivise their employees taking that service as the costs to the business add up over time. Or what if the weather suddenly gets terrible on the day, and your 1 hour early arrival / city exploration strategy becomes unfeasible? All of these are not uncommon scenarios.
But can you imagine what Ryanair would be like if they did have an effective monopoly on a route?!?
There are dozens of such flight routes in existence, and the only difference between these and high-competition routes is that there are less bargain fares available due to more demand per seat. Booking a few months in advance, London-Trieste (ryanair only) is still on many days over £100pp, while London-Milan (Loads of options) is much less than that. But booking a week or two in advance, the difference in price is negligible. It's the same on high-competition railways.
 
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yorksrob

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It makes sense to maintain an unreserved section - particularly as, by the nature of our network, there will be people doing shorter distance journeys on IC trains anyway.
 

Watershed

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You don't have the right to a seat, but intercity operators (for hopefully obvious reasons) don't plan to have 50% more people than seats even on the busiest trains (disruption aside), so they need to leave some free for the people on off-peak tickets, particularly on the trains immediately after the end of the afternoon peak.
LNER allow virtually every seat to be reserved on their services, so that isn't really true.
 

andy33gmail

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To extend them further you need to first procure new rolling stock and then conduct a huge renewal of infrastructure so all the trains fit platforms and junctions. For that billion pounds or so, you could make enormous difference to local journeys more rapidly and deliver more social change to people further towards the bottom end of the income ladder.
Compromises are possible.

It's conceptually possible to use older stock with lower speed limits, skip stations that are too short or otherwise incompatible, use less favourable route allocations normally used by freight ...
 

Egg Centric

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I’m not sure I understand your point, and I’d like to.

Basically a combo of these two things - happy to expand more if it's not clear:

What I'm trying to say is that every £1 of extra revenue for LNER is £1 extra to spend on nurses or social care or whatever.

These are effectively the same point - if the Treasury decides that the railways will get say £4 billion per year subsidy, then every pound of extra revenue from LNER means an extra pound that can be spent on either operational subsidy for other lines, or on investment on increasing capacity on busy lines

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It makes sense to maintain an unreserved section
(FWIW this is the obvious "everyone is mildly disgruntled but at least gets something" solution so idk why we don't do it - yes I know there's an unreserved section, but officially. We could even have longer trains with a solution like this)
 

andy33gmail

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Basically a combo of these two things - happy to expand more if it's not clear:
Got it. But that assumes that net tax/subsidy is the net effect on the treasury. Whereas in practice it’ll affect income tax, NI, VAT, costs to deal with RTAs … plus also reductions in revenue from fuel duty and “road tax” as well as costs in fixing potholes etc
 

Egg Centric

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Got it. But that assumes that net tax/subsidy is the net effect on the treasury. Whereas in practice it’ll affect income tax, NI, VAT, costs to deal with RTAs … plus also reductions in revenue from fuel duty and “road tax” as well as costs in fixing potholes etc

Sure, hence my caveating with the italicised almost - licking me finger, sticking it in the air, and waving it around I reckon they're about 85% equivalent.

Others' finger licking + waving results may differ depending upon prevailing winds.
 

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