Carnforth_24
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WCRC served with new Improvement Notice
- Thread starter Carnforth_24
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TastyMaltesers
Member
Basically, the ORR continues to be unhappy about WCRC's operation of drop light windows.
The improvement that’s required is:Improvement notices 2026 | Office of Rail and Road
This page contains details of improvement notices issued in 2026.www.orr.gov.uk
So, do what you said you’d do or find an alternative.
43096
On Moderation
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- 18,735
It would be interesting to know what has prompted this enforcement action, especially as it mentions employees explicitly.
Not the correct linky in your post chum (Was confused when is starting reading :-d)
HTH
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orrprdpubreg1.blob.core.windows.net
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Would concur with this
Yet they're still rewarded with thunderbird jobs and taking Network Rail staff on private charters (the most recent one I can remember was to the South West). You would think Network Rail would be aligned to the ORR and purchase services elsewhere.
Fully agree with you, nothing you said is wrong, if I was in charge I wouldn't let anything with my name written on it be coupled up to anything maroon
I’d not extrapolate an issue with a few entitled old fools who think they can still window hang these days, to the rest of WCRC’s operations.
Stewarding seems to be a WCRC weak point (‘employees’ or volunteers?) but if that and CDL are the only concerns ORR can find currently, I’d assume they’re in a better place than the past.
Stewarding seems to be a WCRC weak point (‘employees’ or volunteers?) but if that and CDL are the only concerns ORR can find currently, I’d assume they’re in a better place than the past.
I'd want them to use whoever was cheapest that met the need.
Actually, before that I'd question why Network Rail are running private charters for their staff, and if it's quango largesse hope for, but not expect, it to be a target for cutting.
Stewarding on slam door / drop light stock is an essential safety critical role and a safety system is only as strong as it's weakest link. I'm assuming WCRC's procedures prohibit window hanging (with the guard dispatch exception) at which point we could be looking at a safety critical employee (paid or unpaid) not following safety procedures, which is serious. (If the rule book requires something you don't believe in, you can challenge rule book but not following it is unacceptable).
Stewarding not meeting WCRCs own procedures is what resulted in the prohibition notice against the Jacobite, was it 2024?
Representatives of the operator also set the behavioural tone for the passengers with regards window behaviours: I have had this out recently with volunteers on my preserved railway.
A key safety role but not safety critical.
‘Safety Critical’ is legally defined so in these procedures it’s those controlling the train movement, signaller, guard, platform despatch staff and driver.
D365
Veteran Member
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”Entitled old fools” and ”WCRC operations” in the same sentence. I’m sure I’m not the only one who sees the irony in this.
Lots of people's risk assessments have mitigations that involve trained staff (which includes volunteers) etc. If that training regime demonstratingly isn't working then it either needs to be improved on an engineered safeguard would need to put in place instead.
Can they be fitted with locks that only the actual guard has keys to for dispatch. Where does the guard dispatch from? Is it always the same door/window?
Can they be fitted with locks that only the actual guard has keys to for dispatch. Where does the guard dispatch from? Is it always the same door/window?
renegademaster
Established Member
Hastings unit doesn't have window bars on them either. 4TC does though, unsure if it was something LT done or something more recent
bluegoblin7
Established Member
The 4TC was fitted with window bars and restricted quarter lights, as well as removal of roof vents, in 1992.
And the slightly odd, but necessary due to the loading gauge, Repositioning of the horns.
125 Group vehicles also have window bars fitted to their stock.
The ORR would like to see droplights in the closed position at all times when the train is in motion, regardless of whether window bars are fitted. It does seem a little odd that the Night Riviera solution hasn't been mandated on the other rolling stock that remains in use.
Where have they stated this?
It is something repeatedly stated on tours with multiple operators that the droplights should be in the upright position at all times. It seems that, because of air conditioning issues, this becomes impractical.
Arguably that should apply to stewards as well that they do not drop the droplight to open doors until the door locks are released and that all the windows should be shut before the train moves. This seems to be what ORR are staying that only the guard has a role which requires observation outside the train.
Indeed in 2019, they wrote:
https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-news/safety-first-droplight-windows-heritage-and-charter-trains
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I suspect it may be more that the ORR want people not to stick parts of themselves outside the trains. One of the ways to do this is to keep the drop lights shut and one of the ways to do that is to lock them shut. Another way would be to have staff ensure they remain shut but that requires a lot of staff and very high confidence the staff will indeed keep them shut.
SECR 65
Member
I presume, the guards' door of the one or two brake vans on the train. So yes, normally, a guard on heritage stock would always work from the same door.
Mike Machin
Member
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I’m so pleased I was able to remember the specials of the 1970s and ‘80s, windows open and heads out of the drop lights, soot, smuts and cinders as we clattered along at 60mph over jointed track.
Being cocooned in the discombobulating air-conditioned stock of many of today’s charters holds no appeal for me.
Being cocooned in the discombobulating air-conditioned stock of many of today’s charters holds no appeal for me.
andyjhatton
Member
Maybe in another time. Jumpers for goalposts and all that.
But there have been fatalities, and not just on railtours.
There are operators with open windows, but the days of placing your body outside of the gauge envelope are over on the main line.
Are you talking about WCRC or Network Rail?