Hand signal dispatch, hand or bat?

43303_43058 · 30 Jul 2026

Just saw an old YouTube video of train dispatch at a suburban Glasgow (ScotRail) station in Summer 2017, where the dispatcher dispatches the train via the traditional BR method (i.e. 1 hand above the head with a whistle for SWC and RTS) Looking through the regs (SS1) I found that this method of dispatch without a dispatch bat is still permitted, however I though it had disappeared decades ago. I have 3 principal questions:

- When did dispatch bats really become a thing? (first introduction, general implementation)
- Is this method still used by ScotRail to dispatch?
- Do any other operators use this traditional method, eschewing the dispatch baton?

RailUK Forums

Jan Mayen · 30 Jul 2026

May I ask what does RTS & SWC mean, please?

Many thanks

TFN · 30 Jul 2026

Jan Mayen said:
May I ask what does RTS & SWC mean, please?

RTS Ready to Start
SWC Station Work Complete

Lg_ · 30 Jul 2026

43303_43058 said:
- Is this method still used by ScotRail to dispatch?

It is still used, somewhat sporadically, by Scotrail dispatchers in Edinburgh and Glasgow Central. I think it just depends on the dispatcher and the platform you're leaving from. (Tend to be dispatched most of the time using a hand signal on 8 and 9 at EDB)

Horizon22 · 30 Jul 2026

43303_43058 said:
When did dispatch bats really become a thing? (first introduction, general implementation)

I imagine such an answer is going to be highly variable dependent on location, route, TOC etc. Certainly I'd say from the mid 2000s they started to become much more prevalent around London & SE.

LowLevel · 30 Jul 2026

I think dispatch bats started to appear around the late 80s or early 90s, they used to have the Arrows of Indecision on them.

Towers · 30 Jul 2026

Presumably any such ‘hand signal’ locations would still have shown a white light during the hours of darkness?

john prytherch · 30 Jul 2026

I may be completely wrong about this, but I think the use of bats may have started (on the WR anyway) at Bath Spa, where they were found useful due to the curvature of the platforms.

Merle Haggard · 30 Jul 2026

Trivial, but when did 'Despatch' transform into US English?

hexagon789 · 30 Jul 2026

Merle Haggard said:
Trivial, but when did 'Despatch' transform into US English?

'Dispatch' is original in both variants of English, 'despatch' is an 18th century corruption once popular in British English but now generally out of favour except in certain contexts where it is retained for historical reasons.

Islineclear3_1 · 30 Jul 2026

Merle Haggard said:
Trivial, but when did 'Despatch' transform into US English?

I don't know when but I'm sure it was a long time ago. I have a vague recollection of "dispatch" being the noun whilst "despatch" was the verb. I guess both spellings could be correct?

Merle Haggard · 30 Jul 2026

Islineclear3_1 said:
I don't know when but I'm sure it was a long time ago. I have a vague recollection of "dispatch" being the noun whilst "despatch" was the verb. I guess both spellings could be correct?

You could well be right, hadn't thought of that.

Ashley Hill · 30 Jul 2026

Towers said:
Presumably any such ‘hand signal’ locations would still have shown a white light during the hours of darkness?

Modern bats have a lamp built in with red, green and white lamps.

Sakuradori · 30 Jul 2026

43303_43058 said:
- Do any other operators use this traditional method, eschewing the dispatch baton?

Speaking of traditional methods, EMR still use green flags at St Pancras, as do LNER when the driver to guard communication fails on a 225.

Ashley Hill said:
Modern bats have a lamp built in with red, green and white lamps.

I never understood the red lamp on the bat, since you aren't supposed to use it to emergency stop a train.

Purple Train · 30 Jul 2026

Sakuradori said:
Speaking of traditional methods, EMR still use green flags at St Pancras, as do LNER when the driver to guard communication fails on a 225.

So do quite a few other places - GWR at Slough (except platform 1) for one.

Ashley Hill · 30 Jul 2026

Sakuradori said:
I never understood the red lamp on the bat, since you aren't supposed to use it to emergency stop a train.

What else would despatch staff use to stop a train at night?

hux385 · 30 Jul 2026

ScotRail seem to use un-illumimated batons to dispatch 385/380/334 DOO services by raising the baton in front of one of the bodyside cameras. The driver then closes the doors and does the rest of the dispatch process themselves. For 318/320s at Glasgow Central, they raise a hand to the driver first to close the doors, and then a green flag once the doors are closed.

For services with a guard, they all seem to be with just hand signals (no batons), except for when ScotRail staff dispatch TPE services (which do operate with a guard, but are dispatched with a baton).

godfreycomplex · 30 Jul 2026

hux385 said:
ScotRail seem to use un-illumimated batons to dispatch 385/380/334 DOO services by raising the baton in front of one of the bodyside cameras. The driver then closes the doors and does the rest of the dispatch process themselves. For 318/320s at Glasgow Central, they raise a hand to the driver first to close the doors, and then a green flag once the doors are closed.

For services with a guard, they all seem to be with just hand signals (no batons), except for when ScotRail staff dispatch TPE services (which do operate with a guard, but are dispatched with a baton).

That’s more or less the size of it aye.

There’s nothing in the Rule Book about batons (it just says clear hand signal), it’s entirely down to the TOC’s instructions as to their particular locations. Batons are used for camera stock at ScotRail because they’re easier to see on cameras, but this dispatch method is more or less unique to ScotRail

CarineNoctua · 30 Jul 2026

LowLevel said:
I think dispatch bats started to appear around the late 80s or early 90s, they used to have the Arrows of Indecision on them.

Please tell what the Arrows of Indecision are?!

Cos it’s gonna either be the name of my first novel or the name of my first album

Y Ddraig Coch · 30 Jul 2026

When Tfw trains are at most of their own stations, they seem to just blow the whistle hand wave and go, when Avanti stop at these same stations there seems to be a much more regimented dispatch. Even on straight platforms with often only a 5 car.

LowLevel · 30 Jul 2026

CarineNoctua said:
Please tell what the Arrows of Indecision are?!

Cos it’s gonna either be the name of my first novel or the name of my first album

It was a nickname for the old BR "double arrow" logo.

EYFanatic · 30 Jul 2026

43303_43058 said:
- Do any other operators use this traditional method, eschewing the dispatch baton?

Some Hull Paragon based Northern guards will dispatch with the hand in the traditional method as will Hull Trains guards when 10 coach services leave.

Occasionally seen it at York too and seems to be 50/50 on the S&C

TwinTurbostar · 31 Jul 2026

Sakuradori said:
Speaking of traditional methods, EMR still use green flags at St Pancras, as do LNER when the driver to guard communication fails on a 225.

A green flag would be used by the guard for an RA dispatch, unless it's at night or at 'underground' stations, such as Birmingham New Street. I believe Manchester Piccadilly is one place where a guard would use the green flag, but I could be wrong.

Shaw S Hunter · 31 Jul 2026

I would suggest the key driver for the use of batons is to ensure that dispatch signals to train crew are only given by suitably authorised staff, the baton effectively being their "badge of office". As such between trains the baton should either be kept in their posession or stowed in a secure location, most likely their office.

185143 · 31 Jul 2026

Sakuradori said:
Speaking of traditional methods, EMR still use green flags at St Pancras, as do LNER when the driver to guard communication fails on a 225.

I never understood the red lamp on the bat, since you aren't supposed to use it to emergency stop a train.

Someone might not be "supposed to" do something, but you can be damn sure in an emergency, the human WILL do the quickest thing possible to stop the emergency situation!

The rule book states something along the lines of "arms raised in the air, a red light displayed steadily or any light waved vigorously." I can't recall the exact wording. Unless it specifically states "not a red light on a dispatch bat." Then it's merely company policy that says they're "not supposed to."

Ultimately in the event of a discrepancy, I'd expect the RSSB rule book to override any local instruction.

godfreycomplex · 31 Jul 2026

Shaw S Hunter said:
I would suggest the key driver for the use of batons is to ensure that dispatch signals to train crew are only given by suitably authorised staff, the baton effectively being their "badge of office". As such between trains the baton should either be kept in their posession or stowed in a secure location, most likely their office.

The main reason they were developed is for visibility on crowded platforms but what you say is also correct.

Flying_Turtle · 31 Jul 2026

185143 said:
Someone might not be "supposed to" do something, but you can be damn sure in an emergency, the human WILL do the quickest thing possible to stop the emergency situation!

The rule book states something along the lines of "arms raised in the air, a red light displayed steadily or any light waved vigorously." I can't recall the exact wording. Unless it specifically states "not a red light on a dispatch bat." Then it's merely company policy that says they're "not supposed to."

Ultimately in the event of a discrepancy, I'd expect the RSSB rule book to override any local instruction.

Literally, in an emergency anything goes.

godfreycomplex · 31 Jul 2026

185143 said:
. Unless it specifically states "not a red light on a dispatch bat."

It does not say that, naturally

185143 said:
Ultimately in the event of a discrepancy, I'd expect the RSSB rule book to override any local instruction.

Correct. Much as some ops standards departments may like to think otherwise, TOC policy is not statute

sharpener · 31 Jul 2026

Y Ddraig Coch said:
When Tfw trains are at most of their own stations, they seem to just blow the whistle hand wave and go, when Avanti stop at these same stations there seems to be a much more regimented dispatch. Even on straight platforms with often only a 5 car.

This seems to be an area where the railways could learn from other industries. I can think of no other sector where such a wide variety of practice would be tolerated in a safety-critical process. Even acknowledging the history (including DOO and much else) it seems a recipe for disaster for the TOCs to make up their own different procedures, isn't that what the RSSB is for? IIRC the letters stand for Safety and Standards.

Sheridan · 31 Jul 2026

Y Ddraig Coch said:
When Tfw trains are at most of their own stations, they seem to just blow the whistle hand wave and go, when Avanti stop at these same stations there seems to be a much more regimented dispatch. Even on straight platforms with often only a 5 car.

Which stations did you have in mind? It may look a little different as Avanti guards don’t control the doors directly, but I don’t think there’s any actual difference. Holyhead, Llandudno Junction and Chester are all dispatched the same whatever the TOC, in my experience.

Hand signal dispatch, hand or bat?

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