Liam L
Established Member
I believe it's around 70mph where they change gear?
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EMR Regional and Connect refurbishments
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tocguard
Member
Absolutely not.
In which way do you believe they work "excellently"?
They don't like gradients for a start so theres several areas their speed will stagnate or even fall, whereas 158s will hold their own. They're rate of acceleration from a stand is also much slower. It's only because the timings allow for these slight reductions in performance to not usually be noticed that generally they aren't. Certainly not ideal on a lengthy route where there's an alternative traction that can perform better.
Capacity per car is greatly reduced. In multiple, walkthrough is not available. Half the train is without a visible member of staff for questions, queries or advice. Half the train has no revenue checks and the fare evaders know exactly where to head! Half the train has no access to the trolley service if provided. Half the train has no one to perform any safety walk-through.
The ambience may come across more aesthetically pleasing to some, but operationally, no there is very little benefit, if any, to 170 v 158 on Liverpool.
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Yes correct.
On 360109 this morning, unfortunately short formed and delayed, but I’ll say (at least from what I can see from the vestibule as it’s packed) that it’s a vast improvement. Luggage racks by the doors, the permanently declassified 1st Class “cubicle” is also gone.
The PIS are all LCD screens, even those hung from the ceiling, and it list arrival times, too.
Unfortunately, the lighting is more towards a cool white, though not Class 700 level. Must say new carpet alone makes it much better.
Edit:
PIS (the 16:9 screens) also shows TfL service info.
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Rail Quest
Member
They soke up crowds through Central Manchester better than the 158s in my experience. A small win for them, perhaps.
The amount of times my train home has been delayed because it's stuck behind an overcrowded 158 taking its sweet time unloading at Piccadilly can be very annoying. Those end doors seem to kill quick layovers on busy services.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Strange that it's suddenly returned to service in a very low key way.
Could it be the new M.D. has asked why, when there aren't enough 360s that work to run the service (see yesterday's disgrace), it's been sitting unused for months?
InTheEastMids
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At the media launch in June, EMR were indicating the refurbished trains would start to enter service in July.
Today is the penultimate day of July, so - and forgive my cynicism, which I'm sure is wholly unjustified
- perhaps the basic idea is to get a couple of trips in today and tomorrow to tick this box (perhaps there is even a commitment to/requirement from DfT that needed ticking off)theblackwatch
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According to Live Rail Record, it has been in service since the 25th, see https://live.rail-record.co.uk/allox/?loco=360109At the media launch in June, EMR were indicating the refurbished trains would start to enter service in July.
Today is the penultimate day of July, so - and forgive my cynicism, which I'm sure is wholly unjustified
The trip today certainly wasn’t great… short-formed and delayed by 70 minutes in the end, not EMR’s fault though, a broken down freight train at Wellingborough and then a passenger taken ill on a Thameslink train at West Hampstead which meant the driver had to change ends to go back and onto the Up Slow from the Up Fast.At the media launch in June, EMR were indicating the refurbished trains would start to enter service in July.
Today is the penultimate day of July, so - and forgive my cynicism, which I'm sure is wholly unjustified
At least I was able to charge my phone with the new sockets on the tables.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
I recall a great fanfare when a new shed was opened at Northampton for refurbishment work, and two 360s were shown inside. Does anyone know the progress on the other one? Was a third unit sent there when '109 left (back in March)?
westcoaster
Established Member
that was 107 that returned in February/March time, and has not be used since.
spends its time going between the depot in Bedford, and either Cricklewood or Kettering stableing sidings, and back again.
360111 has been in Northampton since June,
so 107,109 and possibly 111 (odd units in sequence maybe)
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Merle Haggard
Established Member
Thanks. I was confused & should have paid more attention!.
I couldn't understand why I hadn't noticed the refurb one was back in service but that's because I have been searching for '107 pretty much daily. It's still not in service, but the posts about a refurb one being in service refer of course to '109.
InTheEastMids
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It's a pretty dismal rate of progress. Forgetting about the periodic (re)announcements of commitments since the original EMR franchise award, the first unit went off to Northampton nearly a year ago. So far, Siemens have managed 2 units of which only 1 is being put into service (and it was taken out of service at 0915).
This means the Connect service is still very much struggling again today. Despite having 19 units (excluding collison-damaged and under refurbishment) to deliver 12 diagrams, it seems that for most of the day EMR have been trying to manage with 8.
Given the season, it's probably one of the quieter Fridays of the year and that's lucky because consecutive peak-time departures from London to Corby (1717, 1747) look to be only 4 cars.
Was aiming for the one (potentially) refurbed 360 due out today but looks like it's diagram was changed since very early in the day due to "a problem with the on-board safety systems (M0)."
Still have yet to see any in the flesh...
The other morning I was in an Aircon failed short formed unit that was the first off peak of the day so very much fun!
The way my luck is recently I will likely move house just before they properly enter service and then somehow end up on a line that has good stock now that gets swapped out for ironing boards on the day I move...
Still have yet to see any in the flesh...
The other morning I was in an Aircon failed short formed unit that was the first off peak of the day so very much fun!
The way my luck is recently I will likely move house just before they properly enter service and then somehow end up on a line that has good stock now that gets swapped out for ironing boards on the day I move...
317 forever
Established Member
On Wednesday I travelled on an EMR 158, which I was surprised to see had new purple/grey interiors but still had Stagecoach EMT livery. (Sorry, I didn't note the fleet number).
Anyway, I imagined that repaints may have been effectively suspended pending GBR livery, but that photo suggests otherwise.
tocguard
Member
Likely 799.
The 158s are split between ownership of Angel Trains or Porterbrook which determines where and how they're getting done.
799 is a Porterbrook set and has been interior refurbished in house at Eastcroft. Angel sets go away to Bristol for full treatment. I'm not sure what the current position is on when/where the Porterbrook sets get painted.
CR165022
Established Member
The Porterbrook ones are being vinyled instead of painted, but 799 got it's interior done before the first porterbrook units started getting vinyled, so presumably will get done at some point.
317 forever
Established Member
Thank you for your explanation for the development of that unit (and potentially others).
So you know him personally to pass judgement like that? Don't you think some of the issues have been beyond his control e.g. 810 quality problems, 222s going off lease?
Killingworth
Established Member
Having previously met and spoken to the departed MD I too would call out Chriso's language. Delayed and defective 810s. Deteriorating 222s that should all have been given up by now. 360s that should all have been refurbished by now. A mixed bag of 170s that have been brought together from various previous operators owned by 2 leasing companies and with differing equipment. 35 year old 158s still soldiering on.
Then there's the political background. Adding a major accident that seems likely to deprive EMR of 2 units long term when they're already short of serviceable trains (not forgetting one's still brand new) would be enough to test any manager. He isn't perfect, who is, and needs better understanding and a break, not opprobrium.
Edit 3.8.26. The personal phraseology in the post to which Moltman and I objected has thankfully been amended.
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TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
What link do you have to him, that would have you jump to his defence in such a way? EMR has been an utter embarrassment since Abellio took over from Stagecoach, and since it became Transport UK you could say it just got worse.
I will never fail to be tired by members who get offended on other people’s (or a TOCs) behalf, when those people/TOC had a responsibility to provide an adequate service, failed to show evidence that they did, and then were rightfully criticised on a public discussion platform.
Amos390
Member
How do you think all this will improve/worsen when it’s eventually acquired by GBR (and is there an estimated time for that)?
Ok first experience with refurbed 360 today...
Initial experience great. Comfy seats with plenty of give, tables are nice and big and line up with the windows.
Then the 8 other very full carriages on platform 1 unloaded due to some sort of failure and came onto our 4 car and things turned worse.
Air con could not keep up, leading to lots of delays because the air con in the cab presumably runs off the same system and this meant the train had to run a lot slower because the driver was too hot (didn't know this was a rule!)
Can refurbed 360 drivers no longer open windows?
Initial experience great. Comfy seats with plenty of give, tables are nice and big and line up with the windows.
Then the 8 other very full carriages on platform 1 unloaded due to some sort of failure and came onto our 4 car and things turned worse.
Air con could not keep up, leading to lots of delays because the air con in the cab presumably runs off the same system and this meant the train had to run a lot slower because the driver was too hot (didn't know this was a rule!)
Can refurbed 360 drivers no longer open windows?
I have no issues with criticism of a TOCs performance or that someone isn't seeming to do a good job of leading it. What I do have an issue with is calling someone derogatory names (even if you think it is mild) - the original post has been edited since I replied to remove said insult so I can understand if you think I was over reacting.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
The only refurbished 360 that is actually working, 360109, seems to be running solo. Does anyone know if it can't work in multiple with the the other 360s, or is it just a coincidental outcome of the apparent difficulty of getting enough 360s out to work all the diagrams?
Kite159
Veteran Member
If the 360s are like the SWR units, above a certain speed with the window open to get air into the roasting hot cab the sound is too loud to hear the various safety systems pinging.
dk1
Veteran Member
Should do. Thought it was just cosmetic.
Sounds to me like the cab window was open, as the reduced speed is needed to hear the AWS over the rushing wind
Last week it was working in multiple with other members of the EMR fleet (exc 107 which is still AWOL), so would be lack of available units
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Out today with 104 as well
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InTheEastMids
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Yes, coming from the team that's brought you such three increasingly epic threads of woe - the 246 page Class 810 thread, the 31-page "EMR Class 222’s - declining reliability" and the still new "EMR to introduce reduced Inter City service from Monday 20th July" (only 4 pages so far), it will not be a massive shock to discover that Connect's current performance is also woeful.
EMR need 12 of its 20 Cl360s in 6 pairs to operate all services as 8-car. My superficial analysis suggests EMR cannot or will not regularly use more than about 9 on a weekday - e.g. today it looks like one diagram is 4 vs 8 car, and one diagram is missing. This is ~45% availability whereas it looks like other operators using similar 350 and 450 fleets get 80-90%.
WesternLancer
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Good analysis - and presumably all the units need leasing fees paid so fees paid for units to be leased that are not shifting bums on seats is wasted costs somewhere....