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The cost of living agenda - how should the railway contribute ?

What approach should the PM take in making passenger rail contribute to the cost of living agenda

  • Ongoing fares freeze/cap

    Votes: 30 15.6%
  • Nationwide Network Card/National Railcard

    Votes: 55 28.6%
  • Abolish peak fares

    Votes: 49 25.5%
  • Tax/salary incentive

    Votes: 8 4.2%
  • Better fares competition on the railway

    Votes: 12 6.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 12 6.3%
  • Nothing - everything's honky-dory

    Votes: 21 10.9%
  • Income based railcard/discount

    Votes: 5 2.6%

  • Total voters
    192

yorksrob

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There never was a true discussion, most down south just pay as (relatively) few travel enough in the north to notice the lower prices.
You might like to look at the latest Government study of overcrowding Here, table 1 clearly how the difference between peak and off peak demand is much greater for London than all other major cities. This is the reason why infrastructure and investment is so geared to peak flows result in that it goven to London travellers and cynically denied to others, - more a commercial decision to maximise revenue that is needed for the peak flows.

That probably helps to explain why some London flows in the area might be more expensive per mile than some of the more local routes in the North.

This, and the fact that wages are generally lower in the North, mean that its no excuse to deny Northern passengers railcards, groupsave discounts etc
 
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mike57

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A London & South East TOC earns >20p per passenger km (Elizabeth line 30p). Northern erns 14p per passenger km.
Surely this is a result of fixed costs, for example wages, rolling stock costs. A carriage carrying its full completement of seated passengers is going to earn more per passenger mile than a carriage with 10 passengers. If you pack them in standing then you will earn even more per passenger mile because a rammed full train doesn't really cost much more to operate than an almost empty one.
 

NCT

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Surely this is a result of fixed costs, for example wages, rolling stock costs. A carriage carrying its full completement of seated passengers is going to earn more per passenger mile than a carriage with 10 passengers. If you pack them in standing then you will earn even more per passenger mile because a rammed full train doesn't really cost much more to operate than an almost empty one.
I specifically mentioned, and only mentioned passenger km. I have not said anything about revenue per vehicle km operated.
 

WAO

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Railways need volume; Greater London with a population of c8M has that. Regional cities typically with populations of 0.5 - 1M don't. Also geography is an issue; railways have problems with topography, such as in Yorkshire.

Where the regions score is in their wider populations; those of the regions through which TP passes have c17M - hence TPU. A similar argument holds for XC and indeed for the main lines into London. There are good examples up North such as Merseyrail and the Airedale/North Leeds lines where station footfall is about 1M. There are also underdeveloped/under-served lines through populous areas which need better services and longer (working) trains, not cheap fares.

WAO
 

AM9

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That probably helps to explain why some London flows in the area might be more expensive per mile than some of the more local routes in the North.

This, and the fact that wages are generally lower in the North, mean that its no excuse to deny Northern passengers railcards, groupsave discounts etc
It seems that you still don't get it. The Network railcard is a promotional offer to help match usage of actual infrastructure and rolling stock capacity that peak demand obliges the railway to provide. Without such a promotion, there would be less leisure travel off-peak, meaning that:
many stations in the south-east would still need staffing but have fewer passengers to justify the staffing costs​
8, 10 and 12-car multiple units (mostly electric) would spend over 6 hours between the peaks sitting in carriage sidings near the city-end terminals, bringing no revenue​
the railway would need higher subsidy or peak fares would be even higher to pay for the wasted availability off-peak​
I hope you have looked at the document that I linked, it makes this fairly obvious.​
So Chris Green (rightly so) decided that a 33% discount on leisure was a worthwhile sales tool to not only increase rail usage but improve the public image of rail travel in general, (which it did).
The Network Railcard is not a charitable offering to the public, or a welfare obligation, - it is a commercial sales tool. If there was a similar business case for areas outside the south-east, they would have been (or maybe will be) introduced there.
 

yorksrob

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It seems that you still don't get it. The Network railcard is a promotional offer to help match usage of actual infrastructure and rolling stock capacity that peak demand obliges the railway to provide. Without such a promotion, there would be less leisure travel off-peak, meaning that:
many stations in the south-east would still need staffing but have fewer passengers to justify the staffing costs​
8, 10 and 12-car multiple units (mostly electric) would spend over 6 hours between the peaks sitting in carriage sidings near the city-end terminals, bringing no revenue​
the railway would need higher subsidy or peak fares would be even higher to pay for the wasted availability off-peak​
I hope you have looked at the document that I linked, it makes this fairly obvious.​
So Chris Green (rightly so) decided that a 33% discount on leisure was a worthwhile sales tool to not only increase rail usage but improve the public image of rail travel in general, (which it did).
The Network Railcard is not a charitable offering to the public, or a welfare obligation, - it is a commercial sales tool. If there was a similar business case for areas outside the south-east, they would have been (or maybe will be) introduced there.

Much as I like NSE, it's ancient history.

We're discussing socio-economic circumstances in 2026 and how the railway can support people to go about their business, not about how Bob Reid 2's commercial railway of the 1980's can fill some of its slammers during the day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There are also underdeveloped/under-served lines through populous areas which need better services and longer (working) trains, not cheap fares.

WAO

Arguably the residents need both.
 

Magdalia

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Much as I like NSE, it's ancient history.
It isn't ancient history, as statistics published yesterday demonstrate.


This publication presents statistics on rail passenger numbers into and out of major cities in England and Wales on mainline services, excluding services operated by open access operators.

Passenger demand is much higher in Greater London than in other major cities in England and Wales, so additional detail is provided for individual stations in central London.

In particular, the peak is still much more pronounced in London than elsewhere.

Demand patterns differ between London and cities outside of London. In London, journeys are more concentrated in peak times. Around 575,500 (46%) passengers arrived during the AM peak, while 511,000 (41%) departed during the PM peak, reflecting strong two‑way peak flows into and out of the capital.
And that's with the NSE railcard encouraging off peak travel. Without the NSE railcard boosting off peak travel, the difference between the London peak and elsewhere would be even more marked.
 

eldomtom2

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Railways need volume; Greater London with a population of c8M has that. Regional cities typically with populations of 0.5 - 1M don't. Also geography is an issue; railways have problems with topography, such as in Yorkshire.

Where the regions score is in their wider populations; those of the regions through which TP passes have c17M - hence TPU. A similar argument holds for XC and indeed for the main lines into London. There are good examples up North such as Merseyrail and the Airedale/North Leeds lines where station footfall is about 1M. There are also underdeveloped/under-served lines through populous areas which need better services and longer (working) trains, not cheap fares.

WAO
London has a significantly higher rail modal share than any other UK city though, and modal share is definitely the fairer comparison.
 

WAO

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But modal share is high because of the limitation of road capacity with London's population size and density. Car/bus (or LRT) is more of an option in smaller settlements. I would also consider that the populous South East generally has a poorer road system than the North; hence rail's modal share.

I think that the railway can contribute to living costs better by reliability and enough seats rather than cheaper tickets.

WAO
 

AM9

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But modal share is high because of the limitation of road capacity with London's population size and density. Car/bus (or LRT) is more of an option in smaller settlements. I would also consider that the populous South East generally has a poorer road system than the North; hence rail's modal share.

I think that the railway can contribute to living costs better by reliability and enough seats rather than cheaper tickets.

WAO
Indeed, - when motorways that penetrated the centres of the major northern cities were being built in the '60s, London had relatively little road development. It wasn't until the '80s that the M25 became a viable link for tangential and through traffic, and by its very nature, had little benefits for those travelling into the inner boroughs. Under these conditions, rail routes provided the viable mode for commuters so they were developed to their current capacity.
In practice, NSE is as effective as when it was introduced in 1986, despite the Conservatives fragmenting its management and the resulting chinese walls in their operation.
 

squingo44

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We should be rebuilding every major city in the UK to be as dense as London, and ploughing as much money as possible into building new railways. We should be gutting planning restrictions and building apartment blocks around every station within an hour of any city centre.

The best way to support the commuter networks outside London is to develop houses and jobs around them until they become as dense and as profitable as London’s commuter network. And we should aim to double the size of London’s commuter network.
 

Sonic1234

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building apartment blocks
London has many flats that have gone unsold. Leasehold, ground rent, management companies and ever increasing service charges aren't desirable. Not to say you can't do apartments well, but English law doesn't provide for that (Scotland have something better in this regard, I think).
 

yorksrob

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London has many flats that have gone unsold. Leasehold, ground rent, management companies and ever increasing service charges aren't desirable. Not to say you can't do apartments well, but English law doesn't provide for that (Scotland have something better in this regard, I think).

There are some reasons for leasehold, however it is hugely abused.

If Scotland can do without it, why not the rest of the country.
 

al78

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Indeed, - when motorways that penetrated the centres of the major northern cities were being built in the '60s, London had relatively little road development. It wasn't until the '80s that the M25 became a viable link for tangential and through traffic, and by its very nature, had little benefits for those travelling into the inner boroughs. Under these conditions, rail routes provided the viable mode for commuters so they were developed to their current capacity.
In practice, NSE is as effective as when it was introduced in 1986, despite the Conservatives fragmenting its management and the resulting chinese walls in their operation.
The M25 was originally supposed to be one of four ring roads at various radial distances from the city, but only one was built. It is why the M23 terminates at junction 7 at Hooley, it was meant to go much further into London but without Ringway 1, there was nowhere for it to terminate that would be suitable to distribute its traffic. South London lacks a high capacity inner ring road whereas North London has the north circular where the M1 conveniently starts/ends.
 

Bald Rick

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Use your imagination.

Well I have. because you suggested that every station within an hour of a city should have apartment blocks built next to them. Perhaps you didn’t mean that?

The M25 was originally supposed to be one of four ring roads at various radial distances from the city, but only one was built.
Five ring roads, A-E (Abercrombie’s plan of 1943). The M25 is part D and part E. Parts of A, B and C were also built, but not in full (obviously)
 

yorksrob

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The M25 sadly did manage to swallow up the bulk of the Westerham line's trackbed.
 

lookapigeon

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I voted for abolishing peak fares. Purely from a slightly biased point of view being a commuter to London 5 days a week and having a fairly eye watering sum come out of my salary for just purely getting to work during normal office hours.
I would also extend the NSE railcard to be nationwide to also encourage railway patronage as well as helping with the cost of living.
 

AM9

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I voted for abolishing peak fares. Purely from a slightly biased point of view being a commuter to London 5 days a week and having a fairly eye watering sum come out of my salary for just purely getting to work during normal office hours.
I would also extend the NSE railcard to be nationwide to also encourage railway patronage as well as helping with the cost of living.
Any suggestions as to how your changes would be funded?
 

JonathanH

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I would also extend the NSE railcard to be nationwide to also encourage railway patronage as well as helping with the cost of living.
There has been some chat in the press about the prime minister expressing interest in the idea of a National Railcard for all, but I don't think the railway would implement one available at peak times, as the revenue loss and potentially induced crowding would be too much.
 

lookapigeon

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Any suggestions as to how your changes would be funded?
I'm no chancellor, however , close the loopholes for the wealthy and corporates to enable them to get away with tax reduction.
Place the restriction back in for child benefits, but make it a window, so 2-3 children max. Presently with it lifted, it's a recipe for people to pretty much lie back and thnk of England if they've not had their children, or would like more, and also adds uncertainty for future spending.
Recover cash off all of the companies that colluded with the government of the time to produce questionable PPE.
Spending review to weed out all companies that charge the government a premium to try and cash in by charging extra.
Add extra premium to first class/premium fares - will those that can afford those bat an eyelid? Probably not.

There has been some chat in the press about the prime minister expressing interest in the idea of a National Railcard for all, but I don't think the railway would implement one available at peak times, as the revenue loss and potentially induced crowding would be too much.

I'd keep the restrictions as they are so you wouldn't be able to double dip with the railcard discount, but weekends, and outside of 'peak' sure.
 

The Planner

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I'm no chancellor, however , close the loopholes for the wealthy and corporates to enable them to get away with tax reduction.
Place the restriction back in for child benefits, but make it a window, so 2-3 children max. Presently with it lifted, it's a recipe for people to pretty much lie back and thnk of England if they've not had their children, or would like more, and also adds uncertainty for future spending.
Recover cash off all of the companies that colluded with the government of the time to produce questionable PPE.
Spending review to weed out all companies that charge the government a premium to try and cash in by charging extra.
Add extra premium to first class/premium fares - will those that can afford those bat an eyelid? Probably not.



I'd keep the restrictions as they are so you wouldn't be able to double dip with the railcard discount, but weekends, and outside of 'peak' sure.
Are you genuinely suggesting people have kids for child benefit? That £27.05 a week is going so far.
 

NCT

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These discussions usually boil down to 'tax other people and spend on me'.
 

yorksrob

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These discussions usually boil down to 'tax other people and spend on me'.

As opposed to the status quo which seems to be "give everyone else a discount and make working age Northerners pay for it".
 

yorksrob

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That's a demonstrably false statement.

Other non SE regions are available.

If my statement is "demonstrably false" please inform me of where I may obtain my national railcard so I can access the sort of discounts every other demographic seems to have access to.
 

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