Were there any routes or areas where BR considered using Pacers but never did?

AY1975 · 23 Jul 2026

Following on from this thread from 2020 about whether Pacers ever operated in London at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/did-pacers-ever-operate-in-london.200310/ I wondered if there were any routes or areas of the country where BR considered using Class 141, 142, 143 or 144 Pacer DMUs but never did?

I know that there were a few routes that Pacers worked for a time when new but didn't last long, such as the Devon and Cornish branch lines (where the 142s were known as Skippers), the Conwy Valley Line, and the Edinburgh-Bathgate line when it reopened in 1986. In the case of the West Country branches and the Conwy Valley, I believe that there were problems with the wheels making squealing noises when going round sharp curves, so those routes (and maybe Bathgate for the same reason?) soon reverted to first generation DMU operation.

Someone suggested in the above mentioned thread that it was rumoured that the management of Network SouthEast and ScotRail (despite their use on Bathgate when new) were unwilling to accept any Pacers, and I believe that West Midlands PTE also didn't want them.

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The exile · 23 Jul 2026

AY1975 said:
Someone suggested in the above mentioned thread that it was rumoured that the management of Network SouthEast and ScotRail (despite their use on Bathgate when new) were unwilling to accept any Pacers, and I believe that West Midlands PTE also didn't want them.

Did pacer operations in the initial phases involve much doubling-up? None of the areas above could have managed with single pacers everywhere.

MadMac · 23 Jul 2026

Never heard of them being on the Bathgate service before, but Railcar confirms that 143s were there in the early days. The 14x units were essentially banned on Scottish Region subsequent to this due to issues with operation of certain track circuits.

The exile · 23 Jul 2026

MadMac said:
Never heard of them being on the Bathgate service before, but Railcar confirms that 143s were there in the early days. The 14x units were essentially banned on Scottish Region subsequent to this due to issues with operation of certain track circuits.

Got a feeling that their use was only ever (initially) going to be for the first two weeks or so. Regret now not getting one in that period - I was right in the doorstep.

hexagon789 · 23 Jul 2026

MadMac said:
Never heard of them being on the Bathgate service before, but Railcar confirms that 143s were there in the early days. The 14x units were essentially banned on Scottish Region subsequent to this due to issues with operation of certain track circuits.

Same photographer as in that photo link on Railcar has a couple relevant images on his Flickr account:

143019 Bathgate

After passenger services were restored to the Bathgate line on 24th March 1986 the initial services were provide by Heaton based class 143 railcars. A trio of these units are pictured shortly after leaving Bathgate shortly after re-opening with a well loaded afternoon service to the capital...

flic.kr

Lothian Pacers

Three days after the re-introduction of passenger services to Bathgate, three pairs of class 143 Pacers units leave the West Lothian town with the 1603 service to Waverley. The surrounding scene is something of a memorial to former industries. On the left the car distribution yard is a poor...

flic.kr

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2026 ==

The exile said:
Got a feeling that their use was only ever (initially) going to be for the first two weeks or so. Regret now not getting one in that period - I was right in the doorstep.

Comment on the second image above suggests loaned for just one week.

The exile · 23 Jul 2026

hexagon789 said:
Comment on the second image above suggests loaned for just one week.

Which may explain why, in the “information Stone Age” , I didn’t go out for one - probably didn’t know till it was too late.

hexagon789 · 23 Jul 2026

The exile said:
Which may explain why, in the “information Stone Age” , I didn’t go out for one - probably didn’t know till it was too late.

If it was only a week, suggests it was perhaps to promote the new service with new-ish trains, before then reverting to the ubiquitous Met-Camms until the 150/2s arrived.

The exile · 23 Jul 2026

hexagon789 said:
If it was only a week, suggests it was perhaps to promote the new service with new-ish trains, before then reverting to the ubiquitous Met-Camms until the 150/2s arrived.

It was.

hexagon789 · 23 Jul 2026

The exile said:
It was.

Ah right.

Sometimes the obvious does turn out to be the actual! :lol:

sprinterguy · 23 Jul 2026

The exile said:
Did pacer operations in the initial phases involve much doubling-up?

Very little on their booked services in their early years - off region lashups like the Bathgate branch mentioned above aside. West Yorkshire PTE were fortunate in being able to procure ten centre cars for their 144s as capacity enhancement on the Airedale and Wharfedale routes.

Where the class 140 prototype was trialled gives some indication of where could have been in mind for the production batches: The Severn Beach branch and Central Wales line both featured, and certainly it was touted to all seven PTEs at the time: West Mids as noted are known to have refused and held out for 150s released from East Mids regional work for the Snow Hill lines circa 1991, and electrification of the Cross-City line a few years later, which is fortunate as single 142s would have fallen short on capacity in both instances.

It's probably worth mentioning as a point of interest at this juncture that Birmingham based Metro-Cammell competed against Leyland for the initial class 142 order, I'm assuming derived from the Metrobus panelling of the time.

hexagon789 · 23 Jul 2026

sprinterguy said:
Where the class 140 prototype was trialled gives some indication of where could have been in mind for the production batches: The Severn Beach branch and Central Wales line both featured, and certainly it was touted to all seven PTEs at the time: West Mids as noted are known to have refused and held out for 150s released from East Mids regional work for the Snow Hill lines circa 1991, and electrification of the Cross-City line a few years later, which is fortunate as single 142s would have fallen short on capacity in both instances.

It did runs to Fort William (can't remember whether it went further to Mallaig), thank goodness that got 156s though I believe 150s were considered.

It also did Glasgow to Barrhead, Kilmarnock, Cumbernauld; Edinburgh to Dundee and Dundee to Carnoustie/Arbroath.

Comparatively few of those strike me as genuinely suitable for Pacers, either in terms of capacity or requirements for some fairly sustained fast running at 70+ mph between stations.

jadmor · 23 Jul 2026

Operation in Scotland has been mentioned, and at least one unit appeared around the time that the Bathgate line was re-opened. This photo is not mine so apoplgies to the taker.

hexagon789 · 23 Jul 2026

jadmor said:
Operation in Scotland has been mentioned, and at least one unit appeared around the time that the Bathgate line was re-opened. This photo is not mine so apoplgies to the taker.

View attachment 208169

Three Heaton 143s went up - 143006, 143016 and 143019.

Pyewipecarshed · 23 Jul 2026

hexagon789 said:
If it was only a week, suggests it was perhaps to promote the new service with new-ish trains, before then reverting to the ubiquitous Met-Camms until the 150/2s arrived.

IIRC ScotRail were temporarily short of DMUs due to the class 107s being withdrawn for safety checks and didn't have enough units to start the Bathgate service.
The 143s were still in the process of being delivered so a few were borrowed to launch the new service.
As the 107s were checked and put back into service it freed up 101s to work the route (including at least one with extra "Bathgate link" branding) and in turn allowed the 143s to return to Tyneside.

hexagon789 · 23 Jul 2026

Pyewipecarshed said:
IIRC ScotRail were temporarily short of DMUs due to the class 107s being withdrawn for safety checks and didn't have enough units to start the Bathgate service.
The 143s were still in the process of being delivered so a few were borrowed to launch the new service.
As the 107s were checked and put back into service it freed up 101s to work the route (including at least one with extra "Bathgate link" branding) and in turn allowed the 143s to return to Tyneside.

Ah, now that would make sense.

For some reason I thought the 107 axle crisis was later on, but I see it was mid-1986 so fits with Bathgate re-opening.

Ayr Depot fire couple years earlier certainly made ScotRail tight for DMUs in this period until the 150s were delivered.

Pyewipecarshed · 23 Jul 2026

AY1975 said:
Following on from this thread from 2020 about whether Pacers ever operated in London at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/did-pacers-ever-operate-in-london.200310/ I wondered if there were any routes or areas of the country where BR considered using Class 141, 142, 143 or 144 Pacer DMUs but never did?

I know that there were a few routes that Pacers worked for a time when new but didn't last long, such as the Devon and Cornish branch lines (where the 142s were known as Skippers), the Conwy Valley Line, and the Edinburgh-Bathgate line when it reopened in 1986. In the case of the West Country branches and the Conwy Valley, I believe that there were problems with the wheels making squealing noises when going round sharp curves, so those routes (and maybe Bathgate for the same reason?) soon reverted to first generation DMU operation.

Someone suggested in the above mentioned thread that it was rumoured that the management of Network SouthEast and ScotRail (despite their use on Bathgate when new) were unwilling to accept any Pacers, and I believe that West Midlands PTE also didn't want them.

I remember reading in the excellent book "Valley Lines, the people's railway" by John Davies that BR's management were keen to introduce Pacers on the Cardiff Valleys network in around 1986.
John and the other local managers were not so keen and resisted the attempt, only to be cajoled into accepting the 143s around five years later.

hexagon789 said:
For some reason I thought the 107 axle crisis w

Thank you, I couldn't remember which components they were checking!

hexagon789 · 23 Jul 2026

Pyewipecarshed said:
Thank you, I couldn't remember which components they were checking!

It was a series of fractures discovered in the axles of certain power cars, it was subsequently discovered some were of less thickness than others.

The "thin" ones were shot-peened to cure the issue and reinstated to traffic within about 5-7 months of withdrawal, I just couldn't recall the exact year the issue was found, for some reason I'd thought it was later in the decade but the Railcar website confirmed it was 1986.

Dr Hoo · 23 Jul 2026

The original business Case for the Bathgate line re-opening assumed a minimal 2 x single-car new Sprinters, plus 0.4 of a car for maintenance cover as part of an assumed fleet. The fact that no such vehicles existed or had been ordered was, ahem, irrelevant. There was no assumed use of Pacers, as amply described in previous posts. The DMU availability crisis in 1986 after both the Ayr Depot fire and then the Class 107 axle problems was acute. As a recently-arrived Resources Manager I vividly remember riding in a 3-car formation out of Queen Street one evening. A centre 'trailer' car of uncertain provenance was notable by some boarded-up windows (no spares), no lights (no dynamos), no heat (oil-fired heating defective) and some entire seat frames missing (already cannibalised). The Eastfield fitters worked on two failed engines with blow lamps until one was finally coaxed into life, at which point the driver was content to have a shot at The Bank. We wheezed upwards as I stood with some commuters in the darkness of the centre car with only the glow of smoking materials for comfort. Alighting at Bishopbriggs I walked forward to pat the leading power car on the side as the exhauster belts revved to get the brakes off. "Das ma boy. You can make it to Grahamston, believe me." [Apologies for veering OT.]

Pacers were briefly considered later on for a couple of very low-usage ScotRail services - Kilmarnock-Ayr and Dundee-Carnoustie-Arbroath locals - but as isolated outposts they would have made no operational, training or maintenance sense.

norbitonflyer · 24 Jul 2026

hexagon789 said:
If it was only a week, suggests it was perhaps to promote the new service with new-ish trains, before then reverting to the ubiquitous Met-Camms until the 150/2s arrived.

And Scottish-built, as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

Pyewipecarshed said:
I remember reading in the excellent book "Valley Lines, the people's railway" by John Davies that BR's management were keen to introduce Pacers on the Cardiff Valleys network in around 1986.
John and the other local managers were not so keen and resisted the attempt, only to be cajoled into accepting the 143s around five years later.

As the Valley Lines were dsigned and built primarily for coal traffic, they were probably better suited than most for passenger vehicles designed around a 4-wheel freight chassis.

Harpo · 24 Jul 2026

AY1975 said:
In the case of the West Country branches and the Conwy Valley, I believe that there were problems with the wheels making squealing noises when going round sharp curves,

More seriously the Pacers were repeatedly failing to operate track circuits in the West Country and there were concerns about the level of contact between their wheels and the low rail on curves.

norbitonflyer · 24 Jul 2026

Harpo said:
More seriously the Pacers were repeatedly failing to operate track circuits in the West Country and there were concerns about the level of contact between their wheels and the low rail on curves.

Albeit the squealing noises suggested there was excessive wear of the wheels or the track - probably both.

sprinterguy · 24 Jul 2026

hexagon789 said:
It did runs to Fort William (can't remember whether it went further to Mallaig), thank goodness that got 156s though I believe 150s were considered.

Did it get that far? I'm aware that the 140 was touted round the Central Belt as you describe during the summer of 1981, but I thought it was just the prototype 150 that got to Oban and Fort William in '86.

Dr Hoo · 24 Jul 2026

sprinterguy said:
Did it get that far? I'm aware that the 140 was touted round the Central Belt as you describe during the summer of 1981, but I thought it was just the prototype 150 that got to Oban and Fort William in '86.

I'm sure that I remember an article in a very early edition of what was then RAIL Enthusiast about the trip to the West Highland. It was apparently quite hard to exchange physical tokens manually on the 'off side'. I've still got the edition somewhere but can't dig it out from the depths.

hexagon789 · 24 Jul 2026

sprinterguy said:
Did it get that far? I'm aware that the 140 was touted round the Central Belt as you describe during the summer of 1981, but I thought it was just the prototype 150 that got to Oban and Fort William in '86.

As @Dr Hoo says, it was covered in an article in Rail Enthusiast at the time.

Buzby · 24 Jul 2026

I was on the Press run of the demo unit from Queen Street to Cadder sidings and it was comfy (if a little noisy). There were plans for it to serve Springburn to Cumbernauld and also from Central to East Kilbride. Here’s the video - Jim White (ex STV and the later Sky Sports) is the reporter.

sprinterguy · 24 Jul 2026

Dr Hoo said:
I'm sure that I remember an article in a very early edition of what was then RAIL Enthusiast about the trip to the West Highland. It was apparently quite hard to exchange physical tokens manually on the 'off side'. I've still got the edition somewhere but can't dig it out from the depths.

hexagon789 said:
As @Dr Hoo says, it was covered in an article in Rail Enthusiast at the time.

Fair play, I've learnt something new today in that case, cheers for that.

45Fox · 24 Jul 2026

Years ago a retired Nottingham guard told me that he and a driver conducted an Eastern Region crew on a pacer (not sure if a 142, 143 or 144) on the soon to be opened Robin Hood line in the 1990s, not long after they had learnt it. Don't know if this was the initial service from Nottingham to Newstead or one of the later extensions, Mansfield/Worksop, but he did tell me it was the latter days of BR.

They were told at the time that this was to assess the suitability of pacers for the service.
Happily, it was obviously decided they weren't suitable.

Prime586 · 24 Jul 2026

Buzby said:
I was on the Press run of the demo unit from Queen Street to Cadder sidings and it was comfy (if a little noisy). There were plans for it to serve Springburn to Cumbernauld and also from Central to East Kilbride. Here’s the video - Jim White (ex STV and the later Sky Sports) is the reporter.

"Passenger comfort remains high" he says, while the bobbing of the camera throughout betrays how they got the nickname 'nodding donkey'.

Buzby · 24 Jul 2026

Prime586 said:
nickname 'nodding donkey

I hadn’t heard that - BUT do remember the seats were well sprung, there was grave danger of getting Brylcreme on the ceiling…..

sprinterguy · 24 Jul 2026

Deleted

Were there any routes or areas where BR considered using Pacers but never did?

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