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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

Mawkie

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I noticed @Harpers Tate started a dedicated thread on pay per mile, which is probably a good idea.

It can be found here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I see Andy Burnham has cut VAT on home electricity bills to zero%. Sadly nothing about equalising VAT rates for public charging.

The gap between those who can charge at home and those that rely on public charging is widening not reducing!
 
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AM9

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I noticed @Harpers Tate started a dedicated thread on pay per mile, which is probably a good idea.

It can be found here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I see Andy Burnham has cut VAT on home electricity bills to zero%. Sadly nothing about equalising VAT rates for public charging.

The gap between those who can charge at home and those illthat rely on public charging is widening not reducing!
As will the gap between house prices with and without home charging opportunities.
 

Peter Sarf

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........................

I see Andy Burnham has cut VAT on home electricity bills to zero%. Sadly nothing about equalising VAT rates for public charging.

The gap between those who can charge at home and those that rely on public charging is widening not reducing!
Crickey. That news is worthy of a thread of its own !.
 

pdq

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The gap between those who can charge at home and those that rely on public charging is widening not reducing!
Whilst this is true, the VAT reduction is insignificant. I pay 4p/kWh on Octopus for 'intelligent' EV charging. Let's say I do 12,000 miles a year at a poor average of 3 miles/kWh. That's 4000 kWh of charge. At 4p per unit that's £160 a year including VAT. The VAT component is £8.
 

Mawkie

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I suppose what I'm trying to say is that on your figures of 4000 kWh, public charging at £0.63 (guessed average) attracts a VAT charge of £433. So a 0% rating on public charging would make a significant reduction in people's expenses.

If we accept that, in general, richer people can afford to live in larger properties with driveways, and people with less purchasing power buy terraces and flats, then it makes the social aspect of the vat reduction somewhat unpalatable.
 

pdq

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I suppose what I'm trying to say is that on your figures of 4000 kWh, public charging at £0.63 (guessed average) attracts a VAT charge of £433. So a 0% rating on public charging would make a significant reduction in people's expenses.
Definitely agree that 0% VAT on public charging would make a far more significant impact since (a) the unit prices are so incredibly high and (b) VAT is at 20% not 5%.

If we accept that, in general, richer people can afford to live in larger properties with driveways, and people with less purchasing power buy terraces and flats, then it makes the social aspect of the vat reduction somewhat unpalatable.
Agree to an extent - and a gross generalisation is coming up! The flip side is that people with less purchasing power are more likely to be living in properties with poorer insulation so will use relatively more energy to heat their homes. Therefore, the VAT reduction is of more significance. Noted that it's only on electricity though!
 

Bletchleyite

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Definitely agree that 0% VAT on public charging would make a far more significant impact since (a) the unit prices are so incredibly high and (b) VAT is at 20% not 5%.

I certainly think there needs to be some effort to get the price of public charging down to a price more similar to home charging. It won't be able to be quite that low due to the higher infrastructure costs and a premium for fast charging is fine, but it does need to get cheaper.
 

jon0844

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Definitely agree that 0% VAT on public charging would make a far more significant impact since (a) the unit prices are so incredibly high and (b) VAT is at 20% not 5%.

Perhaps the next step is to look to reduce the 20% to 5%, as I'm not sure they'd go to 0% because commercial usage of electricity is probably very high and the loss of VAT would be significant and harder to sell to Joe Public.

Of course, helping businesses with lower energy bills would have other benefits - including, perhaps, lower costs to customers (although let's be honest, it's quite probable the savings wouldn't be passed on).
 

Mawkie

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Perhaps the next step is to look to reduce the 20% to 5%, as I'm not sure they'd go to 0% because commercial usage of electricity is probably very high and the loss of VAT would be significant and harder to sell to Joe Public.
VAT is added at the point of sale and paid by the consumer, so I think there would be more support than if the energy companies were getting something out of it.

Cheaper public charging is largely agreed to be important for EV adoption, so it seems an easy win.
 

Noddy

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Discussion around the VAT cut and EVs is missing the point. It’s much more about general costs as most folk aren’t charging EVs at 7p kWh but are paying 20p+ kWh plus a large daily standing charge. If you have a heat pump or are considering moving to one (as everyone should frankly) this will make a much bigger difference than for those with cheap overnight EV tariffs.

And to put it another way, if they’d chose to increase VAT costs by 5% would folk all be claiming it’s insignificant?
 

jon0844

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Discussion around the VAT cut and EVs is missing the point. It’s much more about general costs as most folk aren’t charging EVs at 7p kWh but are paying 20p+ kWh plus a large daily standing charge. If you have a heat pump or are considering moving to one (as everyone should frankly) this will make a much bigger difference than for those with cheap overnight EV tariffs.

And to put it another way, if they’d chose to increase VAT costs by 5% would folk all be claiming it’s insignificant?

Yes, those with an EV on a smart tariff - or loads of solar panels and batteries to also benefit from super cheap electricity aren't going to benefit much.. and I'd say that's fair enough as our bills are already low enough. June 16 to July 16 was £20, and that was with all my EV charging, running my inefficient portable A/Cs (3 units), all household usage, plus gas for cooking and heating the hot water...
 

jon0844

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Haven’t you got a switch for the immersion to take excess load? Or is it better to sell that to the grid.

I can switch on electric to heat the water, but it isn't smart and I prefer to export to the grid. When the export rate goes down further, as I'm sure it will as more people get solar and batteries, I may consider getting a MyEnergi Eddi (I already have a MyEnergi EV charger).

When I was on Octopus Agile, I did use electric to heat the water when rates went negative.
 

The Ham

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Haven’t you got a switch for the immersion to take excess load? Or is it better to sell that to the grid.

For me export is 15p, overnight is 4p, it's better to run the immersion overnight than use the excess power from solar to do the same job.
 

jon0844

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For me export is 15p, overnight is 4p, it's better to run the immersion overnight than use the excess power from solar to do the same job.

I'm paying 8p overnight (wasn't able to fix at 3.whatever pence we got briefly in April) and export is 12p. It's too much faff to manually turn on the immersion heater, and I don't think it's worth paying for the Eddi and the installation cost to do it automatically, especially as I'm on gas tracker so have generally been getting a nice discount on gas - but of late, it's got pretty expensive and may well shoot up in October when I'll have to do the maths.
 

Snow1964

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Some new figures collated for June new EV car sales.

Norway 96.5% of new car sales EV
Ireland 51%. (huge percentage, but just 1123 cars of 2200 sold ahead of July plate change)
Finland 48.9%
Netherlands 43.5%
Belgium 37.2%
Luxembourg 35.4%
France 29.6% 55,831 cars
Germany 28.4% 84,057 cars

25.6% for June overall in EU

but some countries way behind, eg :
Spain 11.3% 14,559 cars
Italy 10.2%
Czechia 8.1%
Poland 5.2%


 

Mawkie

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Some new figures collated for June new EV car sales.

Norway 96.5% of new car sales EV
Ireland 51%. (huge percentage, but just 1123 cars of 2200 sold ahead of July plate change)
Finland 48.9%
Netherlands 43.5%
Belgium 37.2%
Luxembourg 35.4%
France 29.6% 55,831 cars
Germany 28.4% 84,057 cars

25.6% for June overall in EU

but some countries way behind, eg :
Spain 11.3% 14,559 cars
Italy 10.2%
Czechia 8.1%
Poland 5.2%


It seems to me the snowball is rolling down the hill in most countries - does anyone have any insight as to why Poland, Italy, and Spain are outliers?

In other news The Guardian are reporting that Carmakers lobbied UK to revoke ban on petrol and diesel cars after 2035. Hardly surprising I suppose, but perhaps their lobbying in other countries and across the EU was more successful?
Major carmakers privately lobbied the UK government to revoke a ban on new petrol and diesel cars after 2035, according to documents that reveal for the first time the efforts to overturn a key decarbonisation policy.

BMW, Ford, Nissan and Toyota, plus the parts maker Bosch, wrote a joint letter to ministers in April calling for an “open technology approach” including petrol and diesel cars after 2035, when the government had said new cars must produce zero carbon emissions.

The letter was obtained by The Fast Charge newsletter via a freedom of information request and shared with the Guardian.

The companies wrote that the government should allow “highly efficient ICE [internal combustion engines], hybrids, plug-in hybrids, range extenders and combustion engines when utilising green steel and sustainable fuels” beyond 2035. All those technologies produce carbon dioxide by burning fuel, as well as other harmful pollutants.

The 2035 ban on sales of new petrol and diesel cars is a cornerstone policy in cutting the UK’s carbon emissions. The switch to electric vehicles is the single biggest contributor to cutting UK carbon pollution in the next decade, according to the government’s Climate Change Committee.

A government spokesperson said the 2035 ban was not up for negotiation. Yet successive governments have weakened battery EV policies.

Labour has already introduced “flexibilities” into electric vehicle targets that run up to 2030. The government is now considering further changes to the rules, known as the zero emission vehicle (ZEV) mandate, after strong lobbying by carmakers.

The suggestion of revoking the 2035 ban was heavily criticised by campaigners and Polestar, an EV brand.

Matt Galvin, managing director of Polestar UK, said: “Reversing the transition to pure electric vehicles in the middle of a climate emergency would be a historic policy failure. The technology exists, consumers are embracing it and the economic case is becoming stronger every year. There is simply no justification for prolonging our dependence on petrol and diesel.

“Rather than reopening the door to new petrol and diesel sales, policymakers should be accelerating the transition by removing the barriers that still prevent millions of drivers from switching.”

The manufacturers have sway with the government because they employ 30,000 people in the UK. BMW owns the Mini factory in Oxford and Rolls-Royce in West Sussex, Nissan has the largest UK car factory in Sunderland, and Ford has factories in Dagenham near London and Merseyside.

The companies said in the letter that a “multipath strategy” should match the EU, which weakened its own electric car targets in December to enforce 90% electric car sales after 2035, down from 100% before. The letter requested a meeting with the then ministers for Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland to discuss the mandate, suggesting that carmakers were trying to build up broad support for diluting the targets.

The companies believed that the extra emissions could be offset by using lower-carbon steel and “e-fuels” – petrol made using green electricity. However, experts say e-fuels are not viable on a large scale because of massive energy wastage.

Critics of European car industry lobbying say the continued sale of internal combustion engine cars could backfire, with fierce competition from Chinese electric carmakers in particular.

Colin Walker, head of transport at the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit, a thinktank, said carmakers battling against the transition “looks like a case of King Canute trying to hold back the tide”.

“For the UK car industry a failure to make the transition quickly enough risks factories and communities being left behind, ultimately putting jobs in peril,” he said. “There is simply no technology that can rival electrification when it comes to reducing emissions and offering significantly lower running costs.”

A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “We remain committed to phasing out all new non-zero-emission car and van sales by 2035.

“The UK EV market is strong and growing, with sales up 35% on June last year, and we’re backing manufacturers through our £2bn electric car grant, which is boosting sales and helping more drivers into EVs.

“We’ve committed to review the mandate by 2027.”

BMW, Bosch, Nissan and Toyota all said the targets should be matched to customer demand, and that they were committed to decarbonisation.

BMW said it has “concerns about the trajectory of the ZEV mandate as the sales requirements for 2026 and beyond do not reflect current levels of consumer demand”. A Bosch spokesperson said: “Supporting all technologies that can reduce CO2 emissions provides the best opportunity for the sector to achieve decarbonisation.”

A Nissan spokesperson said it remains committed to a “fully electric future” but asked for a more gradual transition to battery sales.

A Toyota spokesperson said the government should “remain open-minded” because demand did not match the mandate. He added: “We view carbon as the enemy and are pursuing a multi-pathway strategy that addresses consumers’ mobility needs and enables customers to reduce their emissions as much as possible, as quickly as possible.”

Ford was approached for comment.
 

bangor-toad

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It seems to me the snowball is rolling down the hill in most countries - does anyone have any insight as to why Poland, Italy, and Spain are outliers?

I don't know about Poland or Spain but Italy has a historic electrical setup that's challenging...

Many Italian homes have a meter that is capped to a total load of 3kW. If you exceed it (there's apparently a 10% extra allowance) the meter trips and it needs resetting.
Whilst it's possible to get an up-rated supply it's a effort. With such a low domestic capacity even running a 'granny charger' would be difficult.
I suspect the difficulties in home charging push the desirability of EV's right down and that's reflected in the sales figures.

Cheers,
Mr Toad
 

Bald Rick

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It seems to me the snowball is rolling down the hill in most countries - does anyone have any insight as to why Poland, Italy, and Spain are outliers?

Spain is curious, as they have gone (very) big on solar in the last decade, and now have over 50GW of installed capacity, more than twice that in the UK. They also have high rates of curtailment, particularly in the day in the summer half of the year. You would expect that this could drive some very cheap power prices. Or perhaps the converse is higher power prices overnight, when people are more likely to charge.
 

Harpers Tate

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In other news The Guardian are reporting that Carmakers lobbied UK to revoke ban on petrol and diesel cars after 2035. Hardly surprising I suppose, but perhaps their lobbying in other countries and across the EU was more successful?
As I've said before: I have absolutely NO sympathy for those involved with this. It says to me nothing more than that they have been too idle/lazy to advance their thinking. It's not as if this was sprung upon them at short notice. The boardrooms must have seen this and decided to carry on as normal with every intention of making such a plea when the time got closer and every intention of citing employment risk as their justification. If that is indeed the case then it is they - not this policy - who are solely to blame. I do seriously hope that the government does not back away from this target. If it means certain brands find it uneconomic to carry on making ICEs and suffer - it's of their own making. Rather than continuing to cream profits from building the same dinosaurs they have always built, they should have invested.... I wish those that did so well.
 

thejuggler

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As I've said before: I have absolutely NO sympathy for those involved with this. It says to me nothing more than that they have been too idle/lazy to advance their thinking. It's not as if this was sprung upon them at short notice. The boardrooms must have seen this and decided to carry on as normal with every intention of making such a plea when the time got closer and every intention of citing employment risk as their justification. If that is indeed the case then it is they - not this policy - who are solely to blame. I do seriously hope that the government does not back away from this target. If it means certain brands find it uneconomic to carry on making ICEs and suffer - it's of their own making. Rather than continuing to cream profits from building the same dinosaurs they have always built, they should have invested.... I wish those that did so well.
Car manufacturers are global businesses, the UK and even EU is a very small market. If half the world doesn't have the electricity infrastructure to charge new vehicles manufacturers can't just stop making ICE cars.
 

Harpers Tate

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Car manufacturers are global businesses, the UK and even EU is a very small market. If half the world doesn't have the electricity infrastructure to charge new vehicles manufacturers can't just stop making ICE cars.
There are manufacturers who are with or ahead of the game here and in Europe (and anywhere else where EV use is either dominant or promoted) and won't have difficulty with these targets; and those who aren't and will. If Big ICE Motor find themselves without a market in a given territory (for whatever reason) then they need to either change course or pull out. See "Polestar" above for example.
 

Mawkie

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If Big ICE Motor find themselves without a market in a given territory (for whatever reason) then they need to either change course or pull out.
See Volkswagen in China; once the largest producer of vehicles for the Chinese market. Peaking at 3.95m units in 2019, they've lost sales every year since and have been overtaken by so-called new energy vehicles. It isn't even in the top 10 sellers in China anymore.
 

Peter Sarf

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See Volkswagen in China; once the largest producer of vehicles for the Chinese market. Peaking at 3.95m units in 2019, they've lost sales every year since and have been overtaken by so-called new energy vehicles. It isn't even in the top 10 sellers in China anymore.
Would be interesting to know how the Chinese market views the reliability of VW versus China's domestic competition.
 

Mawkie

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Would be interesting to know how the Chinese market views the reliability of VW versus China's domestic competition.
Foreign automakers are not staging a comeback in China. They are learning to be the junior partner.

It's frightening reading for legacy automakers in China.
Foreign automakers have lost roughly a third of the Chinese market in five years. Domestic brands now control nearly 70 per cent of passenger vehicle sales, up from less than 40 per cent in 2020.
The foreign brands that once defined aspiration for Chinese consumers, Volkswagen, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, are now fighting for the shrinking share that remains.

The casualties are real. Skoda confirmed in March that it will exit China by mid-2026 after sales collapsed 95 per cent from a peak of 341,000 vehicles in 2018 to 15,000 in 2025. Honda’s sales have fallen for five consecutive years, dropping 24 per cent in 2025 to 650,000 units, and its January 2026 volume of 57,489 was down another 16.5 per cent
The article does mention a few exceptions, for example Toyota, who produced a China specific model at $15k and increased sales. All in all, it's an interesting read.
 

AM9

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See Volkswagen in China; once the largest producer of vehicles for the Chinese market. Peaking at 3.95m units in 2019, they've lost sales every year since and have been overtaken by so-called new energy vehicles. It isn't even in the top 10 sellers in China anymore.
What are "so-called new energy vehicles"?
 

mrmartin

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I've had an EV for a few months (got a ludicrously cheap business lease). I only have access to on street parking and I'm amazed at how easy it's been.

I don't think not having access to home charging is a huge problem tbh. The Tesla member rates are 30-40p/kWh which is fine, obviously more than at home but I doubt I do enough miles to make an overnight charging EV tariff worth it (as you pay a higher rate through the day). And most of my milage is longer distance so I'd still need to do rapid charging on the way and the way back.

It's amazing how little energy it uses on (sub)urban driving, can go up to fortnight if I am not doing a longer journey, and with ultra rapid chargers it doesn't take any longer to recharge than doing some shopping.

I think the one thing which would help would be more consolidation in the rapid charging market so the subscriptions would be more "valuable", or ideally some sort of intra network subscription (eg pay an optional £10/month to octopus for electroverse and get a discount at all the stations in network).
 

Mawkie

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What are "so-called new energy vehicles"?
A New Energy Vehicle (NEV) is an official classification used in China for policy, subsidy, and vehicle, regulations. It describes battery electric vehicles (BEV) and plug in hybrids (PHEV) as well as fuel cell vehicles. It excludes traditional hybrids such as the Toyota Yaris.

For what it's worth, Wikipedia has a decent write up.
In China, the term new energy vehicle (NEV) is used to designate automobiles that are fully or predominantly powered by electric energy, which include plug-in electric vehicles - battery electric vehicles (BEVs), and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), including extended-range electric vehicles (EREVs) - and fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEV).[1][2] The Chinese government began implementation of its NEV program in 2009 to foster the development and introduction of new energy vehicles,[1] and electric car buyers are eligible for public subsidies.
 

jon0844

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I think the one thing which would help would be more consolidation in the rapid charging market so the subscriptions would be more "valuable", or ideally some sort of intra network subscription (eg pay an optional £10/month to octopus for electroverse and get a discount at all the stations in network).

As competition increases, we are seeing some signs of prices coming down but there's a way to go. Always check the Electroverse app for promotions, especially on days where electricity is expected to be cheap (you can often check Agile pricing, or subscribe to alerts, to get a clue because if there are many hours of near free, or even negative priced electricity, it may well be that some of the Electroverse companies will be discounted too).

Some naysayers will no doubt say that's a faff and comment on how confusing all of this is - but I'd sooner be checking for the best prices than hoping my local Asda decides to do 30% off petrol at 1300 for four hours....
 

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