What should Avanti do to mitigate overcrowding on 9 car Euston-Brum-Scotland services?

amahy said:

The problem arises when a 9 car is fully booked, there is just half a coach of standard class unreserved seating, which means that if you don't have a seat reservation, you'll probably end up standing. This is especially relevant on the Scotland via Birminghams, as there is lots of potential for short distance passengers to use them, that are less likely to have booked in advance and have a seat reservation. Especially on the section between Lancaster and Coventry, where stops are very frequent for an Avanti service.

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If those on the Wolves-Cov corridor insist on using intercity services then them having to stand is not unfair. There is a local service on both parts of that route (albeit not a through one) on which they will get a seat if that is their priority. See also XC, where lengthening on runs that only get crowded between Wolves and Cov simply doesn't make sense - were it Germany they wouldn't even take local fares on that stretch. (I'm not saying we should do that, but I am saying those standing on an intercity services on a short journey shouldn't moan but rather change their choices).

(Yes, I know, Crewe-Warrington-Wigan has no local service - but it is just that!)

amahy said:

This whole problem could potentially be solved by just having an extra unreserved coach on the 9 car Pendolinos.

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It did work better when F was also unreserved, yes. One could argue that making it FGU and dropping C would make sense, as F has more capacity than C and it would put all three together in the formation on an 11 car and in the busiest part of the platform. The more I think about it the more that makes sense...

Bletchleyite said:

If those on the Wolves-Cov corridor insist on using intercity services then them having to stand is not unfair. There is a local service on both parts of that route (albeit not a through one) on which they will get a seat if that is their priority. See also XC, where lengthening on runs that only get crowded between Wolves and Cov simply doesn't make sense - were it Germany they wouldn't even take local fares on that stretch. (I'm not saying we should do that, but I am saying those standing on an intercity services on a short journey shouldn't moan but rather change their choices).

(Yes, I know, Crewe-Warrington-Wigan has no local service - but it is just that!)

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I agree that passengers on this corridor should be encouraged to use local services.

The main issue with standing on Pendolinos, is that there really isn't anywhere for people to stand without blocking doorways and aisles. This can induce some pretty serious late running, and I've been on busy Avanti services that have just got later and later, purely from the extended dwell times. On one occasion, travelling from Glasgow to Warrington, we left Glasgow 15 minutes late, ending up 45 minutes late at Warrington, purely from the extended dwell times!

Bletchleyite said:

It did work better when F was also unreserved, yes. One could argue that making it FGU and dropping C would make sense, as F has more capacity than C and it would put all three together in the formation on an 11 car and in the busiest part of the platform. The more I think about it the more that makes sense...

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I agree, this seems to be the most sensible solution. I wouldn't be entirely averse for all of CFGU being unreserved, with just CF on the 9 cars.

Bletchleyite said:

If those on the Wolves-Cov corridor insist on using intercity services then them having to stand is not unfair.

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Massively unfair to blame the customer for a defective timetable. If you want rid of a mass of people, give them a better option.

As an aside, try finding an Avanti loo that doesn’t show occupied between Coventry and New Street.

Harpo said:

Massively unfair to blame the customer for a defective timetable. If you want rid of a mass of people, give them a better option.

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That's not practical on a two track railway. Most countries simply don't allow local tickets on intercity services. We are the outlier.

Bletchleyite said:

That's not practical on a two track railway. Most countries simply don't allow local tickets on intercity services. We are the outlier.

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Most other countries don’t leave their InterCity services to do the heavy lifting either by being the sole provider of so many short distance journeys.

Harpo said:

Most other countries don’t leave their InterCity services to do the heavy lifting either by being the sole provider of so many short distance journeys.

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You aren't going to drop Coventry or International calls along there though.

Harpo said:

Most other countries don’t leave their InterCity services to do the heavy lifting either by being the sole provider of so many short distance journeys.

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They aren't the soie provider of local services along the Wolves-Cov corridor. I think they are now the sole through service from Wolves to Cov, but most people are going to/from Birmingham, for which there are other "S-Bahn" style services.

I'm not suggesting banning local passengers from Avanti, but if they have to stand that's their choice, providing extra Avanti capacity for these journeys would be an extremely poor use of money.

Bletchleyite said:

. I think they are now the sole through service from Wolves to Cov,

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There's also the XC Manchester-Bournmouth service for that, although it's not like that has much space either.

pokemonsuper9 said:

There's also the XC Manchester-Bournmouth service for that, although it's not like that has much space either.

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Another supposed IC service doubling/trebling up as a regional and a local service.

I wonder if there could be a ticketing solution to this.

Avanti have slightly (10p) cheaper “Avanti only” tickets along this corridor.

Using Coventry - Wolverhampton as an example:

Anytime Day Single (Avanti only) - £8.30
Anytime Day Single (Any Permitted) - £8.40

Anytime Day Return (Avanti Only) - £13.70
Anytime Day Return (Any Permitted) - £13.80

Whilst 10p won’t make a difference for the vast majority of people, it does mean that their tickets will appear as the cheapest on websites and TVM’s. If someone is buying a ticket then they will likely choose this option and go along with the Avanti itinerary provided as long as it suits them.

The logical thing to do would be to withdraw the cheaper Avanti only fares and either:

- Offer a cheaper WMR only/Non-Avanti fare through this corridor

Or

- Raise the price of the any permitted fare and introduce a WMR only/Avanti not permitted fare at a slight reduction to the current price point.

The reduction in price would be as a result of the inconvenience of having to change in Birmingham.

Unfortunately, it is impractical for either of these things to happen, but in the absence of extra Avanti capacity, this seems to be the logical approach to encourage passengers onto local services.

I would also agree that the approach towards unreserved seating by Avanti needs looked at as there is serious lack of it on 9 car services. Swapping to the unreserved coach to F seems to be the most logical approach.

The Planner said:

You aren't going to drop Coventry or International calls along there though.

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No, but in those other countries you’d have more high capacity local and regional services - even at the expense of slowing the IC to free up a path. It’s also unlikely that the alternative parallel route would have been closed as a “duplicate”. (There are basically 3 parallel route through the Ruhrgebiet, for example) Not only this, but the expectation of being able to use “local” tickets on IC trains would not be there in the first place.

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Huntergreed said:

I wonder if there could be a ticketing solution to this.

Avanti have slightly (10p) cheaper “Avanti only” tickets along this corridor.

Using Coventry - Wolverhampton as an example:

Anytime Day Single (Avanti only) - £8.30
Anytime Day Single (Any Permitted) - £8.40

Anytime Day Return (Avanti Only) - £13.70
Anytime Day Return (Any Permitted) - £13.80

Whilst 10p won’t make a difference for the vast majority of people, it does mean that their tickets will appear as the cheapest on websites and TVM’s. If someone is buying a ticket then they will likely choose this option and go along with the Avanti itinerary provided as long as it suits them.

The logical thing to do would be to withdraw the cheaper Avanti only fares and either:

- Offer a cheaper WMR only/Non-Avanti fare through this corridor

Or

- Raise the price of the any permitted fare and introduce a WMR only/Avanti not permitted fare at a slight reduction to the current price point.

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It is certainly ridiculous that the Avanti only offering is cheaper. There should definitely be a premium on tickets permitting use of either “IC” operators on corridors like that.

Long term - full HS2.

Medium term - full length rolling stock.

The railway is a sticky industry. Rolling stock and infrastructure take years if not decades in planning, approval and delivery, or just waiting for the right point in asset life cycle.

The short term answer is for everyone to 'grin and bear it'.

Avanti is too precious to take Brum - Wolves passengers. TfW trains are too short. Cross Country are two precious and too short. Suddenly only a handful trains carry Brum - Wolves passengers. Not going to happen.

New Street and Wolverhampton are in mixed platform mixed gateline stations. Conductors are not going to do revenue protection on that section.

The only solution is for everyone to grin and bear it.

The exile said:

No, but in those other countries you’d have more high capacity local and regional services - even at the expense of slowing the IC to free up a path. It’s also unlikely that the alternative parallel route would have been closed as a “duplicate”. (There are basically 3 parallel route through the Ruhrgebiet, for example) Not only this, but the expectation of being able to use “local” tickets on IC trains would not be there in the first place.

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Except that doesn't apply here, there has never been a parallel route between Cov and New St, either open or closed. The Wolves low level route is tenuous as it was a different station in Birmingham and it arguably still exists, just very slow as a tram. The way our railway works also means you wouldn't slow down the IC to a great extent due to the loss in revenue.

Make seat reservations only available for long distance trips, unless there is a sensible reason a short distance passenger has to sit down, at which point you displace someone from the priority seats.

If people want to travel on Avanti between Wolves and Cov, they can stand and allow Brum-Euston passengers to sit.

NCT said:

Avanti is too precious to take Brum - Wolves passengers. TfW trains are too short. Cross Country are two precious and too short. Suddenly only a handful trains carry Brum - Wolves passengers. Not going to happen.

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Why not use the Birmingham-Liverpools and the fast Shrewsbury? Both only call at Smethwick Galton Bridge and seem like good alternatives to the Avanti (and XC) trains

Peter0124 said:

Why not use the Birmingham-Liverpools and the fast Shrewsbury? Both only call at Smethwick Galton Bridge and seem like good alternatives to the Avanti (and XC) trains

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In the Birmingham to Wolverhampton direction the Cross Country services depart directly before the London Northwestern services, so I think some intervention would be required for this to happen such as not showing Wolverhampton on the departure boards at Birmingham New Street. Although the London Northwestern service is directly before the Avanti.
I think part of the problem is people appear to just get the first service to their destination on shorter journeys like this without thinking/knowing about all the options so need to have external interventions such as ticket restrictions to force them to that the better (for the majority) option.

VT 390 said:

In the Birmingham to Wolverhampton direction the Cross Country services depart directly before the London Northwestern services, so I think some intervention would be required for this to happen such as not showing Wolverhampton on the departure boards at Birmingham New Street. Although the London Northwestern service is directly before the Avanti.
I think part of the problem is people appear to just get the first service to their destination on shorter journeys like this without thinking/knowing about all the options so need to have external interventions such as ticket restrictions to force them to that the better (for the majority) option.

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Taking them off the boards would be a good start.