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Paignton station footbridge fire: possible solutions and workarounds?

Sporty60

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Moderator note: split from:

Would it be a costly exercise to introduce points between Torre and Torquay so that trains could shuttle to Torquay from Newton Abbot?

There is also a level crossing at Paignton which can occasionally cause cancellations too.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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Would it be a costly exercise to introduce points between Torre and Torquay so that trains could shuttle to Torquay from NA.? There is also a level crossing at Paignton which can occasionally cause cancellations too.

Yes it would be costly!
 

Taunton

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Yes it would be costly!
For those of us who remember former times, with major layouts having points and duplicate facilities all over the place, often just installed or removed by the regular gangs as required, it does seem bizarre that even basic layout changes are dismissed for somehow costing large sums. How did such an inflexible approach arise?
 

JN114

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For those of us who remember former times, with major layouts having points and duplicate facilities all over the place, often just installed or removed by the regular gangs as required, it does seem bizarre that even basic layout changes are dismissed for somehow costing large sums. How did such an inflexible approach arise?

Significantly higher safety standards for installation and testing; higher welfare standards for the staff doing in the installation.

All that flexibility went 40 years ago with sweeping rationalisation under BR; and the private railway never had any incentive to restore or maintain it.
 

sh24

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Significantly higher safety standards for installation and testing; higher welfare standards for the staff doing in the installation.

All that flexibility went 40 years ago with sweeping rationalisation under BR; and the private railway never had any incentive to restore or maintain it.

...and from what I've read here the huge costs of changing signalling.
 

pokemonsuper9

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Given the line it's only 10 minutes from Newton Abbot to Torquay, if one of the lines could be made suitable for single line working a shuttle every 30 minutes could run.
I think this could be done with just the one signal at the junction to Newton Abbot, unless it needs one at the North end of Torquay platform 1 too
 

zwk500

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Given the line it's only 10 minutes from Newton Abbot to Torquay, if one of the lines could be made suitable for single line working a shuttle every 30 minutes could run.
I think this could be done with just the one signal at the junction to Newton Abbot, unless it needs one at the North end of Torquay platform 1 too
Pedantic point - Single Line Working is specifically describing unsignalled operation.

In theory, yes either line or both lines could be made reversible with relatively minimal number of signals - potentially just 1 at the south end of Torquay if you signalled the Up Line for the wrong-direction moves. However, you will also be adding in the additional route proving logic to the interlocking, amending things like AWS and TPWS to handle traffic in both directions, potentially amending existing signalling to hold the 'other' direction signals at red if required. And probably quite a lot else.
 

WestAnglian

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Moderator note: split from:

Would it be a costly exercise to introduce points between Torre and Torquay so that trains could shuttle to Torquay from Newton Abbot?
I would think that the cost of installing that would be horrendous. You'd need to:
  • Design it all, including any track circuits/axle counters and signalling (you'd need the signal sighting people involved).
  • Make the necessary changes to the signal panels involved (is the signalling still from St. David's?).
  • Get it signed off (ORR?).
  • Convene a suitable team to implement the work, pulling people and equipment from other planned work.
  • Do the actual work, closing the line while you do so.
  • Inform and/or train drivers, guards, signallers, track and S&T teams.
Paignton is awkward to work, with trains in the former down platform unable to reverse without going into Goodrington. They could fix that by adding a crossover outside the station. But they haven't done so, putting up with the inflexible layout since the 1970s. They're hardly likely to put in a crossover to help with a short-term bit of disruption a mile or two up the line.
 

RPI

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Paignton is awkward to work, with trains in the former down platform unable to reverse without going into Goodrington. They could fix that by adding a crossover outside the station. But they haven't done so, putting up with the inflexible layout since the 1970s. They're hardly likely to put in a crossover to help with a short-term bit of disruption a mile or two up the line.
Not strictly true, trains can shunt back from the down platform beyond the signal and then shunt into the up platform, happens a few times a day
 

edwin_m

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Far quicker than any of this would be to make the platforms under the footbridge safe (remove the bridge if structurally damaged). When platform 2 needs to be used, then passengers would use a gate to the adjacent street which I believe is already the step-free access route.
 

Taunton

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Significantly higher safety standards for installation and testing; higher welfare standards for the staff doing in the installation.

All that flexibility went 40 years ago with sweeping rationalisation under BR; and the private railway never had any incentive to restore or maintain it.
One wonders how European operations such as Switzerland manage with what look like, to our eyes, extremely frequent crossovers, commonly double sets at both ends of a station, and looking at them regularly used as well. If Swiss installation and maintenance crews suffer regular accidents and dismal work conditions that must have passed me by.
 

HSTEd

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One wonders how European operations such as Switzerland manage with what look like, to our eyes, extremely frequent crossovers, commonly double sets at both ends of a station, and looking at them regularly used as well. If Swiss installation and maintenance crews suffer regular accidents and dismal work conditions that must have passed me by.
Well leaving aside the benefits of vertical integration, google suggests Swiss rail subsidies run to around 3 billion Swiss francs, about £2.75bn, for a population of 9.1 million. £302 per head per year.

Rail subsidies in the UK run ~£12bn for nigh on 70 milion people. £171 per head per year.
 

JohnofWessex

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Well leaving aside the benefits of vertical integration, google suggests Swiss rail subsidies run to around 3 billion Swiss francs, about £2.75bn, for a population of 9.1 million. £302 per head per year.

Rail subsidies in the UK run ~£12bn for nigh on 70 milion people. £171 per head per year.

But how does that compare with passenger numbers/useage?

AFAIK the Swiss use their railway much more than we do
 

HSTEd

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But how does that compare with passenger numbers/useage?

AFAIK the Swiss use their railway much more than we do
Yes, passenger kilometres per year per capita are something on the order of double of the UK.

Despite this much higher traffic level they still require nigh on double the subsidy per capita. Given that passenger railways are commonly believed to have economics favoured by high traffic levels, this highlights just how much they spend.
 

Sporty60

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Thank you for your explanations.

Astronomically costly and economically unfeasible then.
 

Taunton

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What's the level of subsidy for the road network in the UK?
Depends how you measure it, for the costs are met out of general taxation, which includes significant amounts from road users. If you add up the VAT on fuel, vehicle purchase, repairs, etc, the additional duty on fuel, annual vehicle licences, and a range of other taxes, none of them applicable to rail usage, then expenditure on road provision is way below income. Road usage is a huge revenue source.
 

MarkyT

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Paignton is awkward to work, with trains in the former down platform unable to reverse without going into Goodrington. They could fix that by adding a crossover outside the station. But they haven't done so, putting up with the inflexible layout since the 1970s. They're hardly likely to put in a crossover to help with a short-term bit of disruption a mile or two up the line.
Not strictly true, trains can shunt back from the down platform beyond the signal and then shunt into the up platform, happens a few times a day
Another crossover on the north approach to Paignton would be very useful to allow up departures from #1. Some local trains shunt between platforms at the north end. This is less time consuming than via Goodrington, avoiding crew getting down to operate the south crossing and check hand points. XC and GW expresses with greater layovers tend to go to Goodrington to reverse.

The pre colour light layout before the late 1980s had a scissors at Paignton North, but curiously the move from #1 to Torquay was never permitted for loaded passenger trains, as there was no Facing Point Lock. I think this was mainly due to a shortage of levers in Paignton North SB. The frame was completely full.

That the 1930s GWR never made small improvements to the layout and signalling here is likely at least partly down to the abortive major contemporary scheme to completely rebuild Paignton with 5 long through platforms and a brand new signal box controlling the entire station layout. The south crossing would have been removed under that project, and a new bridge to take Sands Rd traffic was built about 100m further south as preparatory work. Other elements of the scheme were completed in the 1950s, notably the replacement of Tanner's Road crossing at Goodrington with a road-over-bridge, and there were improvements to the carriage sidings, but the major station expansion was not pursued after WW2.
 
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WestAnglian

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Not strictly true, trains can shunt back from the down platform beyond the signal and then shunt into the up platform, happens a few times a day
A quick look suggests two on a weekday (unless there's a late evening one). That's even less convenient that using Goodrington as it requires three changes of end to reverse the train.

I suppose the first reversal of the day at PN3 is because the yard already has an IET and a Voyager in it, but why the later one(s)? Route knowledge?
 

MarkyT

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A quick look suggests two on a weekday (unless there's a late evening one). That's even less convenient that using Goodrington as it requires three changes of end to reverse the train.

I suppose the first reversal of the day at PN3 is because the yard already has an IET and a Voyager in it, but why the later one(s)? Route knowledge?
It's a quicker move, not requiring crew to get down to operate the manual level crossing at Sands Road and check handpoints. The north shunt is thus also more likely to be used in emergency if a local service with a short turnround had to terminate in #1 exceptionally because booked #2 was temporarily blocked by another late-runnng train.

A disadvantage is that the north shunt reversal must take place on the down line, where there is a fixed red limit of shunt ground signal. While such a move takes place, a further incoming train cannot proceed beyond PN1, Paignton's 'outer home', a mile north at Hollicombe, site of the old Torquay Gas Works signal box and sidings. If there's a generous margin before the next train, then this is not a problem, but it is undoubtedly more risky operationally than a south shunt; if a problem develops while changing ends, the shunt blocks all subsequent arrivals until cleared.

A solution to speed up the south shunt might be to automate Sands Road crossing, if its closure is out of the question (BR tried again, unsuccessfully) in the 1980s). It might be a good candidate for AFBCL treatment, as although it's not a four barrier installlation as usually required, the road is one-way, so there is a clear entrance and exit barrier sequence that the design could use. Allied with this, extension of electric point and signalling provision through to at least two track-circuited sidings in Goodrington yard would avoid the need for crew checking clearance and handpoints. If the track circuits were going that far south, it's worth considering extension of local services to Goodrington to reverse. There is opportunity for rail parking there, both for National Rail and the Dartmouth Steam Railway (it's not good in Paignton town centre curently).

It goes without saying in my scheme the DSR crossover connection would be fully route signalled and twin crossovers provided at the north end for up departures from both platforms.

More ambitiously, provision of a third parallel track across Sands Road crossing into the yard could provide full 10 car IET standage in both platforms, by moving the junction pointwork to the other side of the road. Note this is not easy due to tight boundaries and structures.
 
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RPI

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A quick look suggests two on a weekday (unless there's a late evening one). That's even less convenient that using Goodrington as it requires three changes of end to reverse the train.

I suppose the first reversal of the day at PN3 is because the yard already has an IET and a Voyager in it, but why the later one(s)? Route knowledge?
As @MarkyT points out, it saves the guard having to operate the level crossing gates in both directions at the south end, quite often trains that are booked to go into Goodrington quite often don't, either being brought straight into platform 2 or doing a North end shunt
 

HSTEd

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Whats the level of subsidy for the road network in the UK?
Total infrastructure spend on UK roads is hard to get a completely accurate figure for, but is about £5.5bn per annum for National Highways and of the same magnitude for non trunk roads and roads outside England.

My best guess for total road spend is about £12bn or so a year, which is generally comparable to subsidies to the National Rail system, obviously this estimate discounts fuel duty paid by road vehicles etc.

Vertical integration may help a little in making problems like this one more tractable, but ultimately if you want Swiss levels of infrastructure redundancy, you have to pay Swiss levels of money.
 

MarkyT

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Here's my 'Ultimate Paignton' scheme, providing 10-car IET standage in both platforms, signalled moves to and from reversing sidings and Dartmouth Steam Railway, automation of Sands Road level crossing, and extension of local services to Goodrington, which gets them out of the capacity constrained Paignton platforms. left and right handed crossovers also provided on north approach so up trains can depart from both platforms towards Torquay.
1784741972973.png
Edit: Revised for less impact on DSR engineering yard, and a more practical carriage siding layout.
1784912644856.png
 
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