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EMR to introduce reduced Inter City service from Monday 20th July

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Belperpete

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Bow Fell said:
I alluded to it in the 222 thread a while ago, but because of the way these contracts work between the TOC and the maintainer, there is only one loser, the passenger.

If Hitachi physically can’t or won’t handover the required amount of units each day, then there is little EMR can do apart from apply pressure to Hitachi and continually fine them as part of the TARA. Control then have to scramble round and send out some sort of service with what they’re given. This isn’t in-house maintenance where it’s in EMR’s own gift to put out a service and provide excellent unit availability, you’re at the perils of another company.

Apart from reputation, Hitachi aren’t interested in running a train service, they are just the maintainer. I’ve seen it all before, first hand.

The passenger just wants a train service to rely on at the end of the day, but I think EMR are absolutely correct to point the blame where the actual issues lie.
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Of course, by introducing this revised timetable, EMR will no longer have to pay out DR compensation for the delays and cancellations, while they continue to pocket the compensation they are getting from Hitachi. As you say, there is only one loser, the passenger, in all this.

My view is that passengers who have invested in EMR's service, by buying a season ticket, should get some compensation until the full timetable is reintroduced.
 
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RailUK Forums

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Harpo

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Belperpete said:
Of course, by introducing this revised timetable, EMR will no longer have to pay out DR compensation for the delays and cancellations, while they continue to pocket the compensation they are getting from Hitachi. As you say, there is only one loser, the passenger, in all this.
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Hence my comment about this happening right at the start of the summer holiday. A cynic might suggest that EMR responded to DfT’s request to reduce train operating costs in the holiday period and found a neat way to put an external supplier on the hook. Lucky I’m not a cynic eh?
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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They've managed to run most of the reduced service today so at least passengers have got more certainty.
 
M

Merle Haggard

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Nicholas Lewis said:
They've managed to run most of the reduced service today so at least passengers have got more certainty.
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222013 and 810012 both failing en route. The first, on a down Nottingham, only made it as far as Bedford.
The 222 failure resulted in its return working being cancelled completely but Etches Park managed to get another 810 working to take over 810012's booked return to Sheffield at Derby.
 
I

InTheEastMids

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Interesting detail on this latest BBC piece is that high profile stakeholders like the Mayor of South Yorkshire were given virtually no prior notice of the service cuts, and that EMR had failed to mention that this reduced timetable was being developed at a regular being the previous week:

Coppard said he had only been informed of the reduced services on Friday afternoon
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My officers met with the EMR stakeholder team last week and nothing was mentioned.
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BBC News - Criticism as East Midlands Railway cancels train services - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk

Criticism as East Midlands Railway cancels train services

Train operator reduces Sheffield to London services at short notice due to fleet issues.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

On the day Burnham became PM with a devolution agenda, it's not a great look to discover that EMR/DfT did not think that a city mayor was worth being open/honest with.

The alternative, that EMR panicked and have done this timetable at the last minute suggests a pretty naive world view that things were somehow suddenly going to get better. That's not something to be proud of either.
 
N

Nicholas Lewis

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InTheEastMids said:
Interesting detail on this latest BBC piece is that high profile stakeholders like the Mayor of South Yorkshire were given virtually no prior notice of the service cuts, and that EMR had failed to mention that this reduced timetable was being developed at a regular being the previous week:



BBC News - Criticism as East Midlands Railway cancels train services - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk

Criticism as East Midlands Railway cancels train services

Train operator reduces Sheffield to London services at short notice due to fleet issues.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

On the day Burnham became PM with a devolution agenda, it's not a great look to discover that EMR/DfT did not think that a city mayor was worth being open/honest with.

The alternative, that EMR panicked and have done this timetable at the last minute suggests a pretty naive world view that things were somehow suddenly going to get better. That's not something to be proud of either.
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More likely EMR tried to get a service reduction in and DfT rejected it and then had to accede after last weeks collapse in reliability hence the dump on Hitachi. Even SWR never reduced themselves to that over the 701s
 
T

TheManOnThe172

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Dore & Totley said:
Thought about doing a super off peak trip to London with the kids. Oh, the 19.02 has less carriages, assume 5 instead of 10. OK, if that's full get the 19.32, oh that's cancelled completely. In the car to Mum's then Thameslink it is then.
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EMR have some cheek. Shorten the 1902 then warn people that it will be really busy.

That isn't becuase 1902 is a particularly popular time to travel, but more because it is the first train after the afternoon blackout on which they allow offpeak and superoffpeak tickets. That is a fecision entirely in their hands.

If we accept that shortening the 1902 is the least bad thing to do for their operaroonsl convenience, how about an easement to allow cheaper flexible rickets (say for London to Derby and beyond) to be used on one or two earlier, full length, trains and so avoid some of the overcrowding that they will otherwise create?
 
8

800002

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Nicholas Lewis said:
They've managed to run most of the reduced service today so at least passengers have got more certainty.
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This, is why some of us in the industry / TOC go the extra mile.
Not only is it a case of providing a robust resource plan but also to provide that level of certainty after what is usually atorrid time for the fare paying passenger.
There's bog all point in putting up a proposition which is going to fall over at the slightest breath of wind.
Yes, usual caveats of running an operational railway apply and this should not be thought of as a silver bullet. Things will, and do, happen as per normal. Unfortunately these ripples can be, and generally, are felt harder when the resource plan has already been pared back and the the usual resilience is no longer present.
 
WesternLancer

WesternLancer

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TheManOnThe172 said:
EMR have some cheek. Shorten the 1902 then warn people that it will be really busy.

That isn't becuase 1902 is a particularly popular time to travel, but more because it is the first train after the afternoon blackout on which they allow offpeak and superoffpeak tickets. That is a fecision entirely in their hands.

If we accept that shortening the 1902 is the least bad thing to do for their operaroonsl convenience, how about an easement to allow cheaper flexible rickets (say for London to Derby and beyond) to be used on one or two earlier, full length, trains and so avoid some of the overcrowding that they will otherwise create?
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Yes. This is exactly the sort of idea that might give some passengers a bit of respite from the increasingly poor service being delivered.

There are now occasions when you might get more carriages on the Nottingham- Liverpool route than on the intercity service to London. Ive seen 2 x three car 170s operating that occasionally.
 
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ChrisC

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WesternLancer said:
Yes. This is exactly the sort of idea that might give some passengers a bit of respite from the increasingly poor service being delivered.

There are now occasions when you might get more carriages on the Nottingham- Liverpool route than on the intercity service to London. Ive seen 2 x three car 170s operating that occasionally.
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There were a number of trains short formed between Nottingham and Liverpool yesterday. I travelled on the 1310 departure from Alfreton to Manchester and it was just a single 158. Full and standing when I got on but I did manage to get a seat when someone moved a bag. It was absolutely rammed between Sheffield and Manchester. That train would have returned to Nottingham during the peak time.
 
WesternLancer

WesternLancer

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ChrisC said:
There were a number of trains short formed between Nottingham and Liverpool yesterday. I travelled on the 1310 departure from Alfreton to Manchester and it was just a single 158. Full and standing when I got on but I did manage to get a seat when someone moved a bag. It was absolutely rammed between Sheffield and Manchester. That train would have returned to Nottingham during the peak time.
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I guess EMR thought things were getting too good for passengers on that route….
 
L

LowLevel

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Harpo said:
The timing is incredibly convenient. It’s the start of the school holidays and the peak for annual leave.
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EMR are more or less fully staffed crew wise and don't have any real shortages to speak of.
 
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richardderby

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TheManOnThe172 said:
EMR have some cheek. Shorten the 1902 then warn people that it will be really busy.

That isn't becuase 1902 is a particularly popular time to travel, but more because it is the first train after the afternoon blackout on which they allow offpeak and superoffpeak tickets. That is a fecision entirely in their hands.

If we accept that shortening the 1902 is the least bad thing to do for their operaroonsl convenience, how about an easement to allow cheaper flexible rickets (say for London to Derby and beyond) to be used on one or two earlier, full length, trains and so avoid some of the overcrowding that they will otherwise create?
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EMR should at least remove evening off peak restrictions to Leicester and beyond, while this fiasco is ongoing, the 1832 is booked a 5 car 222, so no capacity there, but if travel allowed throughout the evening peak to help spread the load.
 
8

800001

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Trainman40083 said:
A very different train though. You take the equipment from a 26 metre units, squeeze it into a 24 metre space and have an uprated engine
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And about 70% of components are different to all the other fleets.

These are also first to have underfloor heating.
 
D

Dore & Totley

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TheManOnThe172 said:
EMR have some cheek. Shorten the 1902 then warn people that it will be really busy.

That isn't becuase 1902 is a particularly popular time to travel, but more because it is the first train after the afternoon blackout on which they allow offpeak and superoffpeak tickets. That is a fecision entirely in their hands.

If we accept that shortening the 1902 is the least bad thing to do for their operaroonsl convenience, how about an easement to allow cheaper flexible rickets (say for London to Derby and beyond) to be used on one or two earlier, full length, trains and so avoid some of the overcrowding that they will otherwise create?
Click to expand...
I would certainly go for easement restrictions. Even if only for the emergency timetable. When I use the 19.02 the 10 car is full but not bursting but a 5 car is going to be very cosy to say the least, especially when you know the next train isn't for an hour.
 
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richardderby

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personally, I have long given up with the Pancras service, its via Doncaster or Tamworth for me, EMR must have literally driven away hordes of former passengers..
 
Kite159

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richardderby said:
EMR should at least remove evening off peak restrictions to Leicester and beyond, while this fiasco is ongoing, the 1832 is booked a 5 car 222, so no capacity there, but if travel allowed throughout the evening peak to help spread the load.
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The DfT won't like that, they enjoy the extra revenue generated by the evening peak restrictions on long distance services and don't care that the first trains where the cheaper tickets are valid on are over subscribed.
 
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LowLevel

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www.rmt.org.uk

RMT strike action over safety at East Midlands Railway

RMT members working at East Midlands Railway (EMR) plan to take strike action on Saturday, August 1, and the following two Saturdays over growing safety concerns that the company has failed to address.
www.rmt.org.uk

RMT Press Office:

RMT members working at East Midlands Railway (EMR) plan to take strike action on Saturday, August 1, and the following two Saturdays over growing safety concerns that the company has failed to address.

RMT has been in dispute with EMR since April following the roll out of the 810 fleet which has been operating with a significant number of faults.

Yet EMR has been sending trains into service that are likely to fail and require a full reset which leaves the train with no active safety systems including loss of communication between train drivers, dispatchers, and trackside which has occurred at least three times in the last week alone.

RMT general secretary Eddie Dempsey said that RMT reps at EMR had been extremely patient and tried to engage with management to no avail.

“The company has even put out safety notices with no involvement, consultation or negotiation with our reps who represent those most at risk.

“RMT is demanding that whilst these faults exist and until these trains are shown to be operating properly, they should be taken out of service,” he said.



ENDS
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Train Managers taking strike action over the summer.
 
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Dore & Totley

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Kite159 said:
The DfT won't like that, they enjoy the extra revenue generated by the evening peak restrictions on long distance services and don't care that the first trains where the cheaper tickets are valid on are over subscribed.
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And that's why they lost me as a long term customer. I only use EMR if they come within a tenner of the alternatives.
 
rmHawk765

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Is there any economical benefit to the fact that the 810s were not just ordered as 9-coach units? That way at least the few in service could still provide suitable capacity for individual services (and of course the whole 24m shortening problem wouldn't even exist).
 
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richardderby

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less than 3 months of the EMR franchise left, they are probably just treading water (and taking the money) until they hamd back the keys..
 
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AndrewJM70

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rmHawk765 said:
Is there any economical benefit to the fact that the 810s were not just ordered as 9-coach units? That way at least the few in service could still provide suitable capacity for individual services (and of course the whole 24m shortening problem wouldn't even exist).
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It was probably £2.50 less per year to go with the botch jobs.
 
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ainsworth74

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rmHawk765 said:
Is there any economical benefit to the fact that the 810s were not just ordered as 9-coach units? That way at least the few in service could still provide suitable capacity for individual services (and of course the whole 24m shortening problem wouldn't even exist).
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Sins of the past being revisited on the children of today. EMR can only make their timetable work if they can have two units working two different services in the platforms at St Pancras at the same time. That's what's driven the 5-car 24m formation. If different decisions had been made twenty odd years ago to give more platform capacity we wouldn't be in this mess as EMR could have just ordered either full length 7 or 9-car units or even just 5-car 26m units. We'd probably be in a different mess to be fair but not this specific mess :lol:
 
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